(01-02-2020, 12:01 AM)Hani Wrote: Yeah, we realize that. Hence why we started the whole strike thing. I've had to individually warn some people prior to it, but whether it stuck or not is something I'm not sure on. 
The strikes though are yeah, something that will stick. Not sure where the feeling that it's necessary to ban/kick each other started to have fun came into play. I've seen it before, but it's just grown recently.

On the note of hive minding, it's just something hard to escape from my experience in all the servers I've been in. Cliques form in all communities. Silence one and you have another growing already. 

Also in my specific response, I'm more so talking about donor abuses as they were also increasing in the past few months. None of which we were given guidance on. 
At some point so much time had passed we felt our options were very limited. As they're donors, that money is going directly to dinkleberg so just trying to be careful and seeing what we can do to prevent them from charging back with dinkleberg being on board was very pressing.

(01-02-2020, 11:01 PM)Mother Nuru. Wrote: My biggest issue with this is it starts off like its an address to the ENTIRE community, and then turns into a TTT post.
Neither fish nor myself were contacted regarding this post tbh. This adds to the admin-admin communication that we need.
Yes I dont physically get on server but I am on discord quite often now, daily honestly. I am able to respond to messages. You cannot preach it if you're not going to take the first steps yourselves. If we have something that happens on ph that is crossing into discord or an issue, I am sure to share with you guys, and the discord committee, today being an example, those of you in the committee/admins will know.

Despite it turning into a TTT post, there's still things here that can be learned from both PH and TTT. But you're absolutely right. My apologies for bringing up the past again, but I've seen a little of the behind-the-scenes stuff, and a lot of things could've either happened earlier or been prevented altogether had the admins communicated clearly to each other. That's not to say adminchat has been leaked to me, because it hasn't, but I'm making a point.

Now to pitch in from PH side, during my time here things I've noticed that help. If you teach the staff properly, they teach the community properly, and there fore the community teaches the newcomers. When I >was< extremely active, I made sure to teach people how to talk to others, how not to, etc. (I'm no longer a good role model for this, keep that in mind, I admit now I am a shit role model.) I did this heavily onto my mod team, and they in turn taught tmod, and so on and so forth. It was to the point that we had donors that helped us constantly, and it RARELY felt like donors were overstepping etc. We had newcomers that were able to grasp onto things easily in game due to this and help other newcomers.

This is something that is a big problem in TTT. It is assumed that the staff members are trained on how to use their commands, when to mess around and when to be serious, etc. As far as I can see, that is either completely false, or isn't done good enough. Like it was said in the OP, this year, we've had far too many false bans for hacking/scripting, and joke bans/abuse has become excessive. What do I think the problem is? Simple, TTT staff aren't trained to be serious. Granted, it's not fun to be serious all the time, and I get that. But there's a fine line between having a little fun while still doing your job, and letting fun get in the way of your staff duties. Exhibit A: THREAD 

Also, please, for the love of all that is good and holy, teach the TTT staff what hacks look like. If it means people who are clearly not hacking aren't banned, I'd gladly be willing to volunteer my knowledge.

As for the drama/discord issues/etc, we have to put a cap on that, and fast. We have become far to lenient and been giving 4-5 warnings to one person, when for example, they've been here for years or months. Long enough to learn the rules, but instead of dishing actual punishments, we do more warnings. Therefore they think they can get by with more than someone should, and push limits, and people.

Being on the receiving end of a Discord punishment yesterday, this is a valid point. Of course, I'm likely a special guest in the punishment department because of my community ban, but I don't think it's fair to be muted for a day and a half for calling Fozzy the n word once and deleting it. (which, by the way, is the first time in my almost two years here that I've ever done that in the Discord) Avi is working on some guidelines for the Discord mods, though, so this will likely not be a problem for much longer.

As for the point about being too lenient, I've personally witnessed people who should've been punished sooner get away with a lot more than the average Dinkle person. I've nothing else to say.

As for the issues between community/staff. Matt is correct. Staff no longer is held to the high standards that they used to be, which is something ive been trying to break the ph staff back into. They're not fans of it but it has to be done. When you have a group of people that are allowed to do things however they want, because there is no "admin" or head in charge, etc, for so long, and you bring in rules and restrictions, people do tend to go haywire and sideways. It's not as bad as it used to be and for the >most< part I'd like to say it's better than it was. I know some of my staff will disagree here and that's fine.

This goes back to my point about training the staff. Yes, they are probably trained on how to slay somebody, bring somebody, gag/mute somebody, etc. The problem is they are not trained to know when is a good time to be serious, and when it is okay to mess around a little. I've been on the giving and receiving end of joke slays, bans, kicks, whatever. I've never had a problem with it, but again, there's a point where the joking becomes excessive and interferes with staffing. It gets so bad at times that even the players don't know what's going on. For instance, this thread. This is a ridiculous display, but Gabe's final post sums it up pretty well.

For me personally, my communication issues with Dink are none. Fish has some here and there with responses, but it's not as bad as with TTT I assume. So I want you guys to look and see if maybe it's in the way you guys are contacting him, or something on his end, and discuss between you guys, as a group, how to improve that. Otherwise it'll stay stagnant. Talking with dink about lack of communication usually helps me. I'm not saying it will fix it for you, but it doesn't hurt to try. And as a group. But don't do it in a way where you gang up either. Nobody likes being intimitated. :d

This is something that I am guilty of, blaming Dink for all of the server's problems and insulting him constantly. While yes, a lot of TTT's problems could be solved if Dink was active, there's no reason to talk to him like he is below you. Remember, he might be the owner, but he's also human. Show the man some respect. It's not enough to say it's his fault and call it a day, without making an attempt to talk to him like a friend rather than a boss.

Also I will say Gabe, while I overall agree with the point you're making, the way you have said it here is very much how modern Nuru talks, and it's wrong. The way you address people here is kind of toxic. The one thing we're trying not to be. (I'm guilty, I don't get a lot of room here to preach) If you want people to have better communication between staff/players (admins being included in staff) we have to start by not talking to them as such. Yes I know how frustrating this job is, and sometimes we let ourselves go. But we have to work harder than the rest in keeping it under control.
I mean this with the best intent and I hope you don't take it the wrong way.

Yeah, I don't know what you were thinking with that one, Gabe. I don't get a lot of room to preach here either, in fact I have less room to talk about this than Nuru does, but for an Admin, especially THE Admin that's seen as the bridge between the upper staff and the community, that's not how you talk to people. The community may be all that you've said, but they're also human. Nobody will be perfect, including you. The least you can do is talk to the community. that you're supposed to be the role model of, like they're other humans, because they are. Not okay.

Also I'm against admins getting promotional power. I will never be for this. Leave that for co owners/dink. Yes I know this is problematic, but i see it being FAR more problematic in the hands of admins, specially people who are first timers like myself.
We break shit :))))))) LMAO

Dunno about this one, maybe if we bring in active co-owners (or at least co-owners that are willing to get on and do promotions/demotions when they're needed) and Dink is a little more active, we can at least give the Admins the ability to promote to Trusted. 

Or maybe we give it to the committee members, since the TTT Admins are all but glorified Moderators at this point.

One last thing to the story I swear.
"Admins:

Let's start with one question, what are we? What are we supposed to be? Oh wait, that was two questions, my bad. The answer to the first one is that we are the community leaders along with Dink. We act on Dink's behalf and overseen directly by him while we oversee Trusted-Mod. For the second one, we are supposed to be part of the central authority of the server. We are supposed to make the minor executive decisions within our power in Dink's absence. "

What are we? We are the community leaders UNDER Dink, PICKED by the community, and Dink. Keep this in mind. We don't act on his behalf. We act on the guidelines he gives us, and it's free reign from there. You know as well as I do, and any other current or past admins. Admins here have pretty much free reign to change rules/etc, they just have to be ran by him first.
What are we supposed to be? We are supposed to be the group of people that players and staff can go to when there are issues, when something is broken and in our power to fix (We're ignoring that many don't know what we do and don't have access to), and we are the faces of dinklebergs to put it plainly. How we carry ourselves as admins, is how everyone out there, sees dinklebergs.
Now stop and think, how does dinklebergs look to an outsider?
Thats something we need to work on, myself included.

See the section regarding Admin conduct.

(01-02-2020, 11:01 PM)Mother Nuru. Wrote: My biggest issue with this is it starts off like its an address to the ENTIRE community, and then turns into a TTT post.
Neither fish nor myself were contacted regarding this post tbh. This adds to the admin-admin communication that we need.
Yes I dont physically get on server but I am on discord quite often now, daily honestly. I am able to respond to messages. You cannot preach it if you're not going to take the first steps yourselves. If we have something that happens on ph that is crossing into discord or an issue, I am sure to share with you guys, and the discord committee, today being an example, those of you in the committee/admins will know.

You're right. I didn't really contact anyone about this, even TTT Admins. I might’ve talked more broadly to some of them. That is because it was intended to be my own thoughs in 2019 and what I think should happen in 2020. I didn't want to drag anyone else into that. This is also why I posted it under "Community Discussion" and not "News and Announcements." I didn't want it to be an "official" thing but more of my own personal thing with the hope that others would come forwards and be honest here with their own thoughts, like I was.  In terms of the who the audience was, it was originally supposed to be TTT but I guess I added some entire community aspects in the beginning to review as a whole since they were worth noting. I didn't want to bring PH in because I simply don't play and don't know what happens. It wouldn't of been fair to tie them into this and I'm not going to pretend to be a PH expert. But again, I'm not the greatest at wording things and they often come off the wrong way. 

Now to pitch in from PH side, during my time here things I've noticed that help. If you teach the staff properly, they teach the community properly, and there fore the community teaches the newcomers. When I >was< extremely active, I made sure to teach people how to talk to others, how not to, etc. (I'm no longer a good role model for this, keep that in mind, I admit now I am a shit role model.) I did this heavily onto my mod team, and they in turn taught tmod, and so on and so forth. It was to the point that we had donors that helped us constantly, and it RARELY felt like donors were overstepping etc. We had newcomers that were able to grasp onto things easily in game due to this and help other newcomers.

This is a huge issue on TTT. We do have a training committee consisted of those that seem to be the most experienced and would be able to share their knowledge with others in how they are supposed to act and handle things. Perhaps we've been too lenient with them and not really paying attention to what they actually train them on. Maybe we can develop something to help that. Like Laced said, there is a fine line between having fun while still doing your staff as staff and a point where it just has to stop. Commands given are meant to be used to moderate, not be used as toys. Once in a while is ok, but the way they were used sometimes at an excessive pace was just ridiculous. The false bans is something that has to stop in 2020. We do have a slight issue with donors overstepping but they seem to be resolved afterwards... or that is the hope. Donors on TTT I feel are less inclined or motivated to help sometimes, but that could just be me. Donors on PH seem to be less abusive with commands. 


As for the drama/discord issues/etc, we have to put a cap on that, and fast. We have become far to lenient and been giving 4-5 warnings to one person, when for example, they've been here for years or months. Long enough to learn the rules, but instead of dishing actual punishments, we do more warnings. Therefore they think they can get by with more than someone should, and push limits, and people.

Discord moderation and punishments is something we should work on and keep it consistent. 

As for the issues between community/staff. Matt is correct. Staff no longer is held to the high standards that they used to be, which is something ive been trying to break the ph staff back into. They're not fans of it but it has to be done. When you have a group of people that are allowed to do things however they want, because there is no "admin" or head in charge, etc, for so long, and you bring in rules and restrictions, people do tend to go haywire and sideways. It's not as bad as it used to be and for the >most< part I'd like to say it's better than it was. I know some of my staff will disagree here and that's fine.

You both are right. There isn't really a "high" standard anymore when there should always be a high standard. We are taking small steps to get to that standard again. Sometimes you truly don't know how someone is until they actually start staffing. We've introduced those scenario questions as well to somewhat help with keeping a standard. I have tried to keep a high standard in terms of applications when I do my votes and some I have been on the minority end of some votes. I have voted against some of the current Mods when they originally applied, sorry. Obviously not going to say who. Man am I coming off as toxic again? That is also something I need to work on.. Training committee probably needs to be revamped and teach how to act as well. 

For me personally, my communication issues with Dink are none. Fish has some here and there with responses, but it's not as bad as with TTT I assume. So I want you guys to look and see if maybe it's in the way you guys are contacting him, or something on his end, and discuss between you guys, as a group, how to improve that. Otherwise it'll stay stagnant. Talking with dink about lack of communication usually helps me. I'm not saying it will fix it for you, but it doesn't hurt to try. And as a group. But don't do it in a way where you gang up either. Nobody likes being intimitated. :d

I respect Dink. We all should. We don't have to like him but he's human and we as well. People forget that sometimes and maybe even don’t talk to him as a person rather than a mere server owner. It isn't fair to solely blame him for everything, even this. But does he play a part? Yes. Everyone plays a part. There are probably more communication issues on TTT than one might think in terms of this. I think TTT has more than PH. But I could be wrong. Nonetheless, it definetly needs to improve. Talking to him about it seems to be the most optimal option. I summed it up in my thread I think but probably with poor wording and taking the wrong way. I might reword it a bit.. but it may be too late for that. I start rambling once I get going sometimes it seems.. But yes, it is a group issue. I certainly wasn't trying to gang up on anyone here. I actually might DM you more about this part specifically instead of posting something really long here.

Also I will say Gabe, while I overall agree with the point you're making, the way you have said it here is very much how modern Nuru talks, and it's wrong. The way you address people here is kind of toxic. The one thing we're trying not to be. (I'm guilty, I don't get a lot of room here to preach) If you want people to have better communication between staff/players (admins being included in staff) we have to start by not talking to them as such. Yes I know how frustrating this job is, and sometimes we let ourselves go. But we have to work harder than the rest in keeping it under control.
I mean this with the best intent and I hope you don't take it the wrong way.

It might've sounded a bit toxic yes, but it wasn't meant to. I was going for a more blunt approach to get the message across but seems it could've been taken the wrong way. I also think sometimes we have to be a bit more forceful with how we get our message across so it's taken seriously, but maybe that was a bit of a stretch. Obviously, no one was singled out in this thread. It would be unfair to single out anyone. Not one person or thing is the problem. We're all human and no one is above anyone. We do have to respect each other. I meant everything I said to either be constructive criticism or just an observation. I might go back and reword it if I have the time (not that it took me a few days to write this whole thing ahaha). 

Also I'm against admins getting promotional power. I will never be for this. Leave that for co owners/dink. Yes I know this is problematic, but i see it being FAR more problematic in the hands of admins, specially people who are first timers like myself.
We break shit :))))))) LMAO

I'm just going to repeat myself responding to this so I won't. Basically what I said in my thread I still mean but again that probably could've come off the wrong way too... but maybe we've just had a few more issue on TTT in that regard than PH does. But I do understand the first timer thing. The way Dink would have it set up would mostly be break proof I think.

One last thing to the story I swear.
"Admins:

Let's start with one question, what are we? What are we supposed to be? Oh wait, that was two questions, my bad. The answer to the first one is that we are the community leaders along with Dink. We act on Dink's behalf and overseen directly by him while we oversee Trusted-Mod. For the second one, we are supposed to be part of the central authority of the server. We are supposed to make the minor executive decisions within our power in Dink's absence. "

What are we? We are the community leaders UNDER Dink, PICKED by the community, and Dink. Keep this in mind. We don't act on his behalf. We act on the guidelines he gives us, and it's free reign from there. You know as well as I do, and any other current or past admins. Admins here have pretty much free reign to change rules/etc, they just have to be ran by him first.

That actually sounds a lot more accurate, thank you.. I might just change it to that. I think the point that I was making in this thread is that sometimes simply that guidance just isn't there, which ties into the communication thing.

What are we supposed to be? We are supposed to be the group of people that players and staff can go to when there are issues, when something is broken and in our power to fix (We're ignoring that many don't know what we do and don't have access to), and we are the faces of dinklebergs to put it plainly. How we carry ourselves as admins, is how everyone out there, sees dinklebergs.
Now stop and think, how does dinklebergs look to an outsider?
Thats something we need to work on, myself included.


//edit The way you have worded it here Gabe, very much comes off power hungry. I know it's not your intent, but choice of words is important. Yes we make the final decisions, but that isn't all we are here for. We are here to help. Not to be the power.


Yes I can see it does... but it obviously meant to not be. We aren't here for the power, we're here to help and make the server the best we can as well as leading this community. Lead by example. It was more of what I thought made sense in a realistic setting. Again, I might reword that. I'm assuming some of my responses here either don't cover everything or also come off the wrong way.

(01-03-2020, 01:44 AM)EpicGuy Wrote: The strike system Mother Nuru and Hani brought up are great first steps, IF it’s actually going to be enforced, and enforced fairly. Now this is actually going to require TTT and PropHunt Admins to work together. If some idiot is being an idiot on the PropHunt side of the discord server, and they're being warned over there, then obviously those warnings need to carry over to the TTT side and vice versa. I understand it's hard to moderate 2,000+ people in a discord server, but if we're going to use it, it's going to have to be moderated, fairly.

(01-03-2020, 07:23 AM)Mother Nuru. Wrote: As for the combined the strike system across servers that's going to be a bit complicated as ph has more strict rules than ttt. So if someone got an infraction as staff or donor on ph for say ghosting, that one may easily translate over. But mic spam? On ph we consider far more to be mic spam than ttt does, and we crack down on it a lot sooner. So it would be a bit harder to carry that over and it be fair. I think we should have an overall basis to follow for a strike system and it would be great Like I said ph has had its strike system for quite some time right now and it's been great honestly. I can get with the ttt admins if they'd like to explain better how we do it.

(01-03-2020, 01:36 PM)RussEfarmer Wrote:

(01-03-2020, 07:23 AM)Mother Nuru. Wrote: As for the combined the strike system across servers that's going to be a bit complicated as ph has more strict rules than ttt. So if someone got an infraction as staff or donor on ph for say ghosting, that one may easily translate over. But mic spam? On ph we consider far more to be mic spam than ttt does, and we crack down on it a lot sooner. So it would be a bit harder to carry that over and it be fair. I think we should have an overall basis to follow for a strike system and it would be great Like I said ph has had its strike system for quite some time right now and it's been great honestly. I can get with the ttt admins if they'd like to explain better how we do it.

It would be less complicated if the network-wide punishment was taken out of that equation, and simply use it as a knowledge base. Simply having the knowledge exist in an accessible form in the first place would make admins following through with punishments on particularly problematic players/player groups significantly easier, such as the Bantz group in 2017 that harassed the forums and TTT server for MONTHS and were able to bullshit their way out of every confrontation they got in because nobody knew who the hell they were.

(01-03-2020, 09:26 PM)Mother Nuru. Wrote:

(01-03-2020, 01:36 PM)RussEfarmer Wrote: It would be less complicated if the network-wide punishment was taken out of that equation, and simply use it as a knowledge base. Simply having the knowledge exist in an accessible form in the first place would make admins following through with punishments on particularly problematic players/player groups significantly easier, such as the Bantz group in 2017 that harassed the forums and TTT server for MONTHS and were able to bullshit their way out of every confrontation they got in because nobody knew who the hell they were.

So what you mean is like make the other servers aware of the more problematic players? Because as far as I knew we mostly did this already