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Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Printable Version

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RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - matt_st3 (Strongrule) - 07-07-2020

(07-07-2020, 08:02 PM)Nicol Bolas Wrote: The rule mentioned above is meant for all types of holdable map weapons and barrels. This includes the wand on dimmsdale. I'm not making a list of every single example it is common sense. It has and always will be KOSable to bring the wand near players. Pointless argument is pointless
As a previous admin for quite some time, that is not how the carrying rule was written. We very carefully worded rules (and flubbed others as well in fairness) to be specific about damage or "harm" which hurts or kills the player through non-damage means. 
It is not common sense, which is why a discussion is being held on the forums where we tell people to go. This is why rules are written and defined where necessary and why discretion has always been a point of contention. People differ on what "common sense" means and it is not quite as common as people believe.

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Ckg - 07-07-2020

(07-07-2020, 08:07 PM)matt_st3 (Strongrule) Wrote:
(07-07-2020, 08:02 PM)Nicol Bolas Wrote: The rule mentioned above is meant for all types of holdable map weapons and barrels. This includes the wand on dimmsdale. I'm not making a list of every single example it is common sense. It has and always will be KOSable to bring the wand near players. Pointless argument is pointless
As a previous admin for quite some time, that is not how the carrying rule was written. We very carefully worded rules (and flubbed others as well in fairness) to be specific about damage or "harm" which hurts or kills the player through non-damage means. 
It is not common sense, which is why a discussion is being held on the forums where we tell people to go. This is why rules are written and defined where necessary and why discretion has always been a point of contention. People differ on what "common sense" means and it is not quite as common as people believe.
I'm confused as to what this means by killing someone through non-damage means, considering the only way to kill someone, aside from pushing them into a death zone is through damage.   And the wand seems to fall more in line with the Door Blocking rule, so why would Door Blocking be KOS then if it doesn't hurt or kill the player?

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Foxka - 07-07-2020

Speaking as a former admin here,

Any reason to call a KOS on someone is valid regardless of if they are proven or not. If they are doing something KOSable then use your own judgement there on if you wish to kill them or not

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Noire ♜ - 07-07-2020

I haven't read anything but what foxka said and the original post but like, at one point in time it was a rule that using the wand is KOSable. I thought it was still KOSable. Guess not.
Anyways, I can't believe you people dragged this on for four pages, fuck that.

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - lacer - 07-07-2020

[Image: rhB37EJ.png]

pls lock before i lose more brain cells

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Beskar Baron - 07-07-2020

Part of the issue here is that that "cover all" rule for map specific weapons specifies "damage or harm", but never specifies what definition of harm is to be used.
The wand just so happens to fall into a category where it doesn't fulfill the "remove health" definition of harm, but does fit the "damaging to the gameplay experience" definition, and some mods use one definition to base their response off of, and some use the other.

The issue has become, ONCE AGAIN, consistency. Somehow, the only consistency among the staff of this server is the fact that they are so inconsistent.

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Avi - 07-07-2020

(07-07-2020, 09:31 PM)Laced Xanax Wrote: [Image: rhB37EJ.png]

pls lock before i lose more brain cells

A map specific kos section was added so that there was no grey area in what was allowed or not. A cookie cutter statement (something that fits for multiple scenarios but not all) saying what's not allowed causes confusion...

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Gabe - 07-07-2020

the rule for the wand on Dimmesdale was under map specific koses why is it gone now?

Edit: I know this for a fact because I am the one who wrote it and/or was there when me, the other admins, and hillrop were figuring out what rule to implement for the wand

maybe a bit before I was Admin actually but I know it was there in MOTD at one point for the longest time since the map was first added. 

it seems we now have a mystery to solve for why it is now gone as it was there when I was still Admin up until February. Not sure if the rule got changed (which idk why it would) or it somehow vanished from MOTD *cough* @Nicol Bolas 

Edit for this: I am losing more brain cells and it seems to be a miscommunication/misconception  in the catch all wording thank u

[Image: c5207c67a0bda87daf9ab1324e1f44e4.png]
thank u laced for copy-pasting the rules in discord back in 2018 tho it does come to mind rn that we never kept a good consistent changelog for motd in the comments on it

[Image: 485e3f3930e5bbdc1ae2dbdba09dfbc1.png]
[Image: b6343abcb52392e041cc98b610d6f3cf.png]
my word is also my evidence

TLDR: it was there before for this specific issue so where tf it go

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Nicol Bolas - 07-08-2020

[Image: IMG_20200708_001847.jpg]

Don't say I don't do anything for you fuckers.


Jokes aside I hope this clarifies it for anyone confused. Can we have less-dumb arguments next time please.
Should I close this? Further discussion is unneeded everyone walks away happy and with slight headaches.

RE: Is it allowed to kill a proven if they "threaten" you - Avi - 07-08-2020

(07-08-2020, 12:20 AM)Nicol Bolas Wrote: [Image: IMG_20200708_001847.jpg]

Don't say I don't do anything for you fuckers.


Jokes aside I hope this clarifies it for anyone confused. Can we have less-dumb arguments next time please.
Should I close this? Further discussion is unneeded everyone walks away happy and with slight headaches.
Don't close yet, please readd ALL relevant map specific reasons to kos to prevent further confusion and grey areas so arguments like this don't happen again.