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Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Printable Version

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Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Eluviate - 07-21-2020

I just want to start this by saying that many of the people reading this shouldn't care about what I’m about to rant about, but I want to go ahead and define the limit on what spots are legal on PH. This is basically just an essay to get some things that I think are wrong  righted. I am here to talk about the spots that I think should be legal. I am not pushing for total invisibility, but I just want to find the relative limit of what I can do. I am a sweaty PH tryhard that pushes it to the max with new techniques and spots every day.


Part 1 Clipping Spots
What Is happening right now: spot by spot basis and staff by staff basis.
We have a staff members who has different ideas on what borderline spots are legal and which borderline spots aren't legal leading to you being able to get away with some things when 1 staff member is on and other things when a difference is on. That is a dumb idea in general and I’d rather just have 1 solid ruling on all of this so I’m making this forum post.
Take a look at these images
[Image: LT5mb5XCBNPfEbfhTN-31yaLrWKus4Nu5ofGDmhH...0j4XTxWp7r]
Note that I'm a table in the ceiling
[Image: WMYYc2Rn1ryPHF17_zyO14xFIS9OkVt99Bi99E4k...9m4bFWl_Qj]
Hamburger Burgerham hamhamham burburbur hambur gergerger gerburger hamger

[Image: -hUYcUr7OqkMNaVmiE0-tXxLX-034PhOVdUv69cX...1qX3u5HSb5]
Hula Hoop Girl



Which one do you think would I be warned by a staff member for?
If you guessed image #1 then you would be correct!
Why though?
Let's see if it's legal according to the rules.
1. Can you be seen by hunters?
I can be seen
2. Can you be killed by any weapon other than a nuke?
Yes the table can be shot
3. Did you use unstuck to get out of the map or did you get outside of the map by other means?
Nope
If you are in a spot only reachable by a jet pack, you MUST be killable with a standard weapon, and by killable we mean a player without a jetpack. 
Yep it's killable by standard weapons


Also not breaking any other rule (not outside of the map or hiding in an illegal spot)


Okay so then why do you get warned for it? I’m not a staff member so I’m not completely sure either, but I have some theories on why we’re warned for it.
 
1st Theory and Counterargument: You’re playing pixel hunt.
I did the math. Using simple highlighting technology I can get the total area of the pixels showing.
They’re all from the same distance so the data is legit.


This table shows roughly 1600 pixels, 
This burger shows roughly 1550 pixels and 
The hula girl is only showing 1200 pixels
However, why are you warned for being at the table? They all pass the “is it legal” test and it's showing more pixels than other non banned props so it shouldn’t be banned because its pixel hunty.


2nd Theory and Counterargument: Color/Blending in
Color, this applies more to the hula girl vs the blue chair, but I don't blend into the ceiling at all so I don't see a problem with it. I can understand the blue chair being banned for that reason and why the rule is usually “some blue”, but what about the ladder on youturd. It can blend into plenty of places and has a broken hitbox, and yet it's not banned. 


3rd Theory: Percentage of the prop showing. 
Okay technically this is valid, but it's just a stupid rule why would the percentage of the prop matter in general. If 10% of a prop is 1000 pixels like the vending machine, then why should it be banned if it's so big. It doesn't make sense, it should be based on the pixels visible to the human eye not the % of the prop showing.


4th Theory: The Nature of the table.
Yes the prop becomes split in four by the way I’m using it, but why does it matter, I’m showing the same amount of pixels as any other prop so it should be fine, just spread out more. This is the same as someone clipping into two rooms as a prop or clipping through the ceiling onto a different floor. You’re visible in two different places while remaining completely invisible for some area of your prop and it's not banned. 


5th Theory: Location
This is the one I have a problem with. I’m a sweaty tryhard that likes spots like these because they are more likely to get you alive through to the next round. But if we are banning this because it's on the ceiling compared to on the ground, then what's the point of choosing a location in the first place. If an entire “genre” of spots is banned then what is the point. And how do you deter people from doing it, if you say no tables in ceilings then what about chairs or dressers or anything that is four-legged, or what about being a can in the ceiling? You’d probably have to carpet ban a lot of ceiling spots which ruins a lot of people hiding spots.




6th Theory “I mean c’mon just look at it”
I know what you mean, but in all seriousness, I want a definitive rule on what we can and cannot do with spots. 


7th Theory I don't remember/can't think of any reasons why this spot should be banned
These are the arguments that I normally hear to my spots and I don’t doubt that there's more that I haven’t heard so feel free to comment edits or comment new ones and I’ll update the list.


What I propose:
I don’t think these table spots should be stay banned. This is because they’re just as overpowered as being a small prop. People can learn the spots by either spectating people or by finding them, and then can search there during rounds and kill me; it's not that hard. Its just like any other spot on the map, just a little trickier. People can just look up at the ceiling and find people that are there. I do however think there are exceptions particularly the one on lockup (fish probably knows what I'm talking about) because they show less than 1200 pixels, but my point is that as long as you show a decent amount of your legs from the table then it should be legal. I think it should function similarly to the meshes where you should be told to show a little more or are told to get out of the spot if you’re showing too little of your table legs. Some people don't even know what I’m talking about, but I just want most table spots to be 100% legal no questions asked because I’m warned every single day about it and then I have to get out of my spot and then I go into a new one and I’m warned again. I just want to have its name cleared.



Part 2 Prop Surfing/Barrel Surfing
Prop surfing is in fact legal in PH, it's a common misconception that it's not.
“
2. Do Not Exploit, Hack, or Otherwise Avoid the Game's Intended Limits.
Prop Hunt is a rather simple game. If you are a prop, you hide. If you are a hunter, you hunt. Please don’t make it more complicated by exploiting, hacking, or abusing commands to bend the game’s intended limits. 

  • Map exploiting includes getting back into hunter spawn on Underwataaa, using the !unstuck command to get out of the map, SMG grenade killing before hunters are unblinded, and prop climbing/prop surfing to get out of the map (Prop-surfing/climbing for fun is allowed). 
  • Do not try to escape the map bounds or exploit map bugs that provide an unfair advantage to the gameplay. 
  • Do not abuse console commands to exploit the way in-game items work.
“
This is a bit more of an abstract proof, but I mean if you pass the “is this spot legal?” checklist, even if you prop surf it technically shouldn’t be banned. I’m going to be running off of this definition of out of the map.


Out of the map: a term meaning getting to an area that the developers of the map did not intend normal players to get to such as many of the minimaps that are scaled up in the real map or clipping outside of the skybox or getting out of the an area using unstuck or going on the other side of the hill in crash house. This means that I would argue that in technical terms the antlion on indoor pool is legal, but for practical reasons, it isn't. Thus it is explicitly banned separately on the illegal spots list.


Take a look at this spot
[Image: 5ig_eXGhf39jWXTO8wFDsr26J19YpsUJRQuznekQ...1nB4KUldKV]
Me on top of light on ph_parkinglot
I'm not out of the map (I'm just high up) and I got here using prop surfing. I absolutely had fun doing it so technically I did it for fun. Now yes I can understand why these spots might be a bit more on a blurred line between legal and illegal, but I am shootable in fact I died that round, I am visible, and killable using standard weapons. I think this spot should be completely legal. You can learn how to prop surf in 30 minutes (it's really easy) and you can get to spots like this. However, what if I turned into a can up there while near the edge making me shootable. Is it legal or illegal? (Actually, you can’t turn into a can up there because you are hitting the skybox and have to crouch meaning that you can't use the prop menu, but if theoretically, you became a can up there would it be legal?) I would say yes (but I’m biased because it is a dope ass spot). From the ground, you are definitely showing way less than 1,200 pixels, but at point-blank you are showing the normal amount of “can” pixels. You are killable with normal weapons and I’m not out of the map or clipped. I haven't done anything wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was warned for as a can this spot as a can because of the fact that I would theoretically be hard to see up there and I would be playing “pixel hunt” for the ants people on the ground. I can understand not being a can up there because its too OP. But what about other normal prop surfing spots where you can be very visible when you’re a prop? I know that some staff members, Pixie, in particular, run on “if a jetpack player can make it there then it's a legal spot rule”, but that's only (insert gender pronoun referring to Pixie)’s view. Other staff members don't give a flying fuck that I'm prop surfing (pun intended) as long as I’m relatively visible. I think that because it's not explicitly against the rules that I would be okay turning into a prop up there as long as it is visible down at the ground. If Pixie tells me to get out of a spot I usually say “but it's not against the rules” because I'm as stubborn as a mule. And it isn’t against the rules in any way because I'm having fun while getting there and I’m not out of the map according to my definition, therefore, I feel that it is legal. But staff members do have the final say in these things so I get out of my spot eventually. So basically I'm done with my rant and I just want a definitive answer on what you’re allowed to do with prop surfing. 


TLDR
-Unban table spots because they’re not pixel hunty for the most part
-Make a definitive rule about prop surfing


Also, you’re probably gonna see a shit ton of edits for spelling errors and whatnot.
probably gonna get shit on by staff for this, but hey its worth a shot.

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - VolfVoss - 07-21-2020

Rule about prop surfing:

2. Do Not Exploit, Hack or Otherwise Avoid the Game's Intended Limits.
Prop Hunt is a rather simple game. If you are a prop, you hide. If you are a hunter, you hunt. Please don’t make it more complicated by exploiting, hacking, or abusing commands to bend the game’s intended limits. 
  • Map exploiting includes getting back into hunter spawn on Underwataaa, using the !unstuck command to get out of the map, SMG grenade killing before hunters are unblinded, and prop climbing/prop surfing to get out of the map (Prop-surfing/climbing for fun is allowed). 

  • Do not try to escape the map bounds or exploit map bugs that provide an unfair advantage to gameplay. 

  • Do not abuse console commands to exploit the way in-game items work.
CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, it's legal for fun but not exploiting. 


TABLE BEING BANNED: This doesn't exist. 
There is not a single illegal spot that says being the table is banned. Illegal Spots

Thank you for coming to my TED talk

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Eluviate - 07-21-2020

(07-21-2020, 11:39 AM)The Triangle Wrote: Rule about prop surfing:

2. Do Not Exploit, Hack or Otherwise Avoid the Game's Intended Limits.
Prop Hunt is a rather simple game. If you are a prop, you hide. If you are a hunter, you hunt. Please don’t make it more complicated by exploiting, hacking, or abusing commands to bend the game’s intended limits. 
  • Map exploiting includes getting back into hunter spawn on Underwataaa, using the !unstuck command to get out of the map, SMG grenade killing before hunters are unblinded, and prop climbing/prop surfing to get out of the map (Prop-surfing/climbing for fun is allowed). 

  • Do not try to escape the map bounds or exploit map bugs that provide an unfair advantage to gameplay. 

  • Do not abuse console commands to exploit the way in-game items work.
CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, it's legal for fun but not exploiting. 


TABLE BEING BANNED: This doesn't exist. 
There is not a single illegal spot that says being the table is banned. Illegal Spots

Thank you for coming to my TED talk
What is considered out of the map though, does that mean all spots that you cant get to even with a jump pack or spots outside of the map like the out of bounds on crash house and indoor pool.

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Lt. Star - 07-21-2020

I want to start out saying that it's hard for us as staff to define EVERY prop to say how much you need showing just because people want to stick themselves in places. That would take a lot of time. As for making a percentage rule, that will never happen. Different people will have different opinions on what is say 10% for example and you're back at square one with "well this staff said that but that staff said this". As for how many pixels are showing, no one is gonna take time to find out how many are showing. This probably hasn't covered your entire post but it's what I have for now.

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - VolfVoss - 07-21-2020

(07-21-2020, 11:48 AM)Not Eluviate Wrote:
(07-21-2020, 11:39 AM)The Triangle Wrote: snip
What is considered out of the map though, does that mean all spots that you cant get to even with a jump pack or spots outside of the map like the out of bounds on crash house and indoor pool. YES


Illegal Spots Checklist - Even if a spot is not on this list, it may still be illegal if it doesn't pass each of these requirements.
1. Can you be seen by hunters?
You are not allowed to fully hide in textures/meshes, partial is okay. This includes but is not limited to: garbage bags, tree roots, bodies, etc.
2. Can you be killed by any weapon other than a nuke?
3. Did you use unstuck to get out of the map or did you get outside of the map by other means?


Confused about a spot that you find on the list? Click the link here to find further explanation and a picture for reference.

Regarding Jetpack Hiding Spots

If you are in a spot only reachable by a jet pack, you MUST be killable with a standard weapon, and by killable we mean a player without a jet pack. 
(I.e. the new players must be able to see you and kill you with standard weapons; grenade is not one)

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Lt. Star - 07-21-2020

Forgot to add this to my original post, and going off your question about spots. I believe that if you can't get to a spot with a jetpack you shouldn't be there. Yes it's not clearly defined but my hope is now that it can be.

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - MissPauling - 07-21-2020

I appreciate the time you put into this post and the research behind it, and I will take full ownership in being wrong about the prop surfing rule : I had told you it was illegal because I was in the understanding it was. This was my error.

But here's the deal, you tend to.... REALLY push the boundaries, you have to be told by staff to reposition yourself to be seen/killed. You're showing the math on what you want for this argument which is great, but you're not showing the truth behind the argument. I've caught you numerous times even before I was staff totally abusing the map and prop surfing and it makes the game completely shit for everyone involved, ESPECIALLY the new players. My issue lies with the fact that

a) you're making it less fun for new players which we want to welcome into the community and also ties into this rule;
If you are in a spot only reachable by a jet pack, you MUST be killable with a standard weapon, and by killable we mean a player without a jet pack.
(I.e. the new players must be able to see you and kill you with standard weapons; grenade is not one) : lets be honest, 10/10 times your spots require a grenade. Thats really unfair to new players.

b) you take advantage of prop surfing and bend the rules to your liking where you sit just outside of the punishment line, which is going to ruin the fun of prop surfing for others.


TLDR; I think we need to change the rule on prop surfing since its being abused; if you can't get there via jet pack don't.

Edit: spelling cause i am big dumb

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Mantis - 07-21-2020

What is the ruling on spots that you can get to by jet pack but are faster to get to by prop surfing like the one below.

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - VolfVoss - 07-21-2020

(07-21-2020, 01:48 PM)Mantis Wrote: What is the ruling on spots that you can get to by jet pack but are faster to get to by prop surfing like the one below.
[Image: will_smith.png]

RE: Clipping Spots and Barrel Surfing. Once and for all what's legal and what isn't? - Pixie Pickle - 07-21-2020

Since you've put my name out there I thought I better respond. Yep I have called you on on a few occasions. Most people will tell you that I'm pretty lenient on the server as a staff member and I try not to make a big deal unless its needed. However you have been known to push the boundaries on the rules and when called out on it you do push back on it. Granted you usually do give in fairly quickly but it does get tedious having to tell you the same thing over and over again. The day you are talking about I happened to be recording as I was watching someone else.

I also spoke to the rest of the team for clarification and spoke to Fish about it to make sure I was right about what I had said to you. The rules are there and are pretty clear on these matters, I'm just doing my job of keeping everyone within those rules.