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+--- Thread: Permanent Bans! Again! (/showthread.php?tid=13777)
Permanent Bans! Again! - RussEfarmer - 02-28-2021
Hello,
I'd like to once again fight against the use of permanent banning as a commonplace punishment in favor of long term temporary bans for the reasons stated in this thread.
Player bans in general are used to keep a player that has continually broken the rules off of the server for a period of time. Permanent bans obviously do this job well, but I believe it is an extremely overkill solution that can be replaced with long temp temporary bans ranging from 6 months to one year. Many communities have grown numb to what a permanent ban is: when you ban that player, that player can NEVER play here again without going through the appeal process. This server could still be running when I turn 80 years old, and that person will STILL not be able to play here. There isn't a good reason to have bans last that long for most offenses.
Meanwhile, with long temporary bans, you can have someone join and say the N word and be stupid or whatever. The guy gets banned for a year for being racist, which is pretty fair. People aren't usually hopping from server to server saying the N word for an entire year, so 2 years in the future when that person is browsing for TTT servers to join, he can join back and just play as a regular player with absolutely no remembrance of what happened before.
Seriously, do people really think that some random guy who turns on hacks or something in a 20 year old video game and gets banned is going to remember what happened 5 years in the future? Why do we continue to keep people banned in time frames where that person couldn't feasibly remember what they even did to get banned, especially for dumb offenses like hacking and mass RDM? When I appealed my full on community ban over a year ago, I was banned three years before making that appeal. Did I remember the general idea of why I was banned? Yes obviously, it was very bad. Did I feel bad about doing what I remember? Yes. Do I remember the details? No! I was apparently banned from the Discord since 2017. I don't even remember having Discord in 2017. Now imagine what someone who hops on TTT and throws an incend remembers two years later.
People who are banned long enough forget what they did to get banned in the first place. During this time, they also usually grow and mature. If we find evidence that someone three years ago spammed the n word in chat and banned them right now, we've basically banned a completely different person. That same concept applies to overly long bans, at a certain point it stops being a punishment for a rule breaker or a precaution against someone wanting to harm the server; it just becomes something blocking a potentially good player from joining.
I'll end with saying that permanent banning in appropriate situations is very justified, such as cases of player harassment or an attempt to damage the physical server itself. But in a lot of cases, it's just not necessary. TTT currently has over 12,000 players banned that can never, ever join back again for some reason or another. How many of them did we ban forever just because we were annoyed that they found it funny to mow down a crowd of 9 people? How many of them did we ban for saying the n word once 6 years ago? Now, how many of them do we actually want gone for good, like the people that harass women in private, or the people that have stayed in the community for 6 months for the sole purpose of being a nuisance?
(sorry if this post is structured a little weird, it's late.. read my old one if you want something a bit less crappy)
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - ⋆ Fx ⋆ - 02-28-2021
Yeah before I really became a member I was permabanned for 3 years on here. I massed by killing three people cause I was bored and I had a TTT server to fall back on. The server I was playing on back then mass rdm was only a week ban and weeks were added dependent on how many people were rdmed passed 3 kills. That system is a lot better than just throwing around permabans for petty shit. I'm fully in favor of a revision of the rules and ban times.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - Pixie Pickle - 02-28-2021
I don’t know much about the reasons for perma on the other servers but in order to get perma banned on PH you have either been hacking, have broken many rules and already had several shorter term bans or have done something we feel compromised the safety/welfare of the other players.
I want those permas to stay. It’s pretty simple, anyone who does any of those things does so with the knowledge that they are doing something wrong and outside our rules. A lot of them even think it’s funny when they get banned, like it’s a game to them. How long can I get away with this until I’m banned kinda attitude. We have plenty of players here who play within the rules who don’t want to have to deal with the ones breaking the rules. If they want to come back further down the line, the appeals process is pretty simple and easy to find.
Like I said tho, I don’t know much about the other servers but maybe just a review of the rules and consequences would help rather than no perma at all.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - VolfVoss - 02-28-2021
Speaking for DR side, you have to do something incredibly stupid to be permanently banned there.
We have 141 active permanently banned players, a large number of that is people who were community banned for nefarious reasons/alts of some community damaging individuals. There's a few and I mean like 20 tops, hackers thrown in there.
Every server is different of course and I know that Permanent Bans can be appealed every month if the player so desires. Does it always yield an unban? Nope. Honestly some people just don't care because they have other servers to fall back on.
I understand the longer length ban idea and I'm not opposed to it, as I had previously suggested on a couple unban requests reducing a permanent ban down to 6-9 months for a few individuals. (This was on PH)
I can't speak in place of TTT procedure, as I have not been nor am I TTT staff here or anywhere. Best of luck gents.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - TheUltraFish - 02-28-2021
This seems more like TTT thing with your RDM comment and not being happy with the specific procedure that is currently implemented for all staff to follow. Every person knows being racist, homophobic, (hell even being pedophiliac nowadays) is bad and is the new "edgy" the person is looking for attention and just being an asshole. Even then, the person generally has to continually be racist to get a permanent ban for it (generally there are other things they are listed for by this time when this happens).
I am not, nor should the staff, have to continually deal out longer and longer bans for basic rule breaking issues. Things like mic spam, team switching and other minor issues, your notion makes sense, but people who continually break the rules in the matter of ghosting, racism, evasion, homophobia, exploiting etc do not. Staff should not have to continually increase bans on most issues. Hell I do not even remember the last time I banned someone for more than 3 days for mic spam, team switching, time farming etc.
If you go out of your way to ruin the game for literally everyone else except maybe you and your friends, you kinda lose the legitimate argument to complain about a permanent ban. It is not obviously a perfect solution but it has worked pretty well with most issues.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - JesseTheUndeadCowboy - 02-28-2021
Not going to lie one time one time on ph I heard a guy spam the n word with the er I believe, got gagged once, left and then got perma banned, don’t get me wrong the way some people act there should be punishments but sometimes I feel the gun is jumped a bit on some of the servers, no offense to anyone. Of course the guy might of did it more before I was in the server but if not then that does seem a bit excessive if they indeed only got gagged once. This happened months ago btw but I’m pretty sure I only saw the dude get gagged once and then they left. Don’t get me wrong I am not against punishing racism and other people who like to just cause trouble, but like Russ sort of does have a point that some people can change. Again it is true they can make an appeal but also people may not remember a lot and won’t honestly know what to put for the appeal. Of course they could try putting more thought into the appeal but usually they may busy with other stuff and just don’t have that much time to focus on something they did years ago. Anyway, in ttt I also think mass rdm should be somewhat reduced in terms of the time of the ban. The way we can do this is would be either by banning them a certain number of days for each person they rdmed but if they reach a certain number of people they rdmed it should be a perma ban or long time ban.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - jax - 02-28-2021
Agreed. Not to mention that most of the player base hovers around 18 years of age or younger. People change, people mature. Who I was at 16 was different than who I was at 17 years old. People may be going through some shitty experiences at home, which cause them to lash out and make poor decisions. Not excusing them but giving someone a “6 months” ban to cool off is a lot more effective than just a permaban.
In my opinion, permabans should only be reserved for hacking and exploiting. I think there needs to be a reworking of the TTT rules to include intermediary steps before a permaban is issued. 3-Month, 6-Month, and 1 Year bans should be more common place.
I think the community, the staff, should just sit down one day and give a rehaul of the rules
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - Norm Minder - 02-28-2021
If you want to be perma banned from the murder server, you have to do something incredibly stupid .
It looks like we have a 225 permanent bans at the moment,Mostly racist people ,hackers,rdming.
Racist people mostly getting banned in 3.offense permanently.I don't know about the other servers, but the murder server usually has kids.But I'm definitely against things like rdm ,micspam being a permanent ban.Stupid things like that can be forgiven.
To be honest, I don't like banning people because of rdm .If I banned someone because of rdm, it's probably a ban request.In my opinion ,hacking,exploit, should not be forgiven.
When I ban racist people, I leave a link to the site in case they want to return later. Let me give you an example, last month we had a player who constantly harassed girls, children staff and people ,and racism .Some players didn't come back to server because of this guy.Permanently banned in 2.offense.
If you're ruining other players games except you .Sorry we have a small group of regular players ,we can't lose them for a few assholes.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - RussEfarmer - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 09:49 AM)TheUltraFish Wrote: I am not, nor should the staff, have to continually deal out longer and longer bans for basic rule breaking issues.
I think you misunderstand.. I'm not saying increase the number of bans a player needs to get to a "permanent ban", I'm saying just replace the permanent ban with long temporary bans. There's no extra effort required for staff other than changing the option in the menu from permanent to one year. I can almost guarantee that if we retroactively reduce/unban older bans made years ago for stuff like ghosting, racism etc, the volume of players we'd see that WERE banned returning to do the same thing as opposed to brand new players breaking the rules would be absolutely tiny.
Speaking of which.. for prophunt, I would especially like if old ghosting bans were removed. I personally banned over 100 people for ghosting, with other staff members tallying several hundred more, when back then, there was no warning or force swap or 2 week ban for ghosting. When you got caught ghosting, you immediately got permabanned.
RE: Permanent Bans! Again! - matt_st3 (Strongrule) - 02-28-2021
This is largely aimed at ttt rdm bans or similar gameplay related bans. Reminder that they are permanent *until appealed*. Simple as that it starts a process where the incident is noted (can be handled by temp yes) where now they have to come to the forums and explain what happened or even just simple appeal if they don’t remember. I’ve seen many just turned down to 3 slays and an unban or 1-3 month bans based on what happened. These 2, 3, 4 year bans are people who never tried to come back and apparel - that does not mean that the staff were *keeping them banned* for that time. It turns off their ability to come back until they make an effort to want to be back. Now, that being said a lot of unban requests are filled with people expecting some heartfelt apology that they are not entitled to. Annoying yes, and missing the point of the unban process.
For simple, incend or accidental or whatever, mass rdm then yeah I don’t care if a number of months are applied. However, as soon as you attach that number then that’s seen as the appropriate number for the ban. Whether that will affect the number of successful appeals to make bans shorter i don’t know. I will say, I have no problem with perma *until appeal* banning the guy who got on server just to kill 5 people and leave. You win your Darwin Award there.
Personally tho I don’t feel sorry those that get on to kill indiscriminately so I’m all for keeping it the way it is knowing that there’s an appeal process where I have seen them overturned if they are simple cases.
Things such as harassment, racism, sexism, pedo-behavior or the like deserves a perma ban.