[Dildo Shwaggins]

Hello, I will preface this by saying that if it does get out of hand or strays off topic that I am okay with it being closed, but recent events have caused me to question a little bit on how certain punishments should be handed down and the general inconsistency of how it is handled sometimes. I’ve been in the community (in and out the past few years, mind you) for a long time and things have improved since a while back- but they could be better- this instance is not the first time I’ve seen targeted hatred but it’s the most egregious in a good bit at least in my memory. 

 I get it’s gaming community and there are always going to be trolls, slurs, insults, etc. Progressive warnings for the usual mischief that isn’t good but not really targeted nor harmful makes sense. Even the best of us will do shit to get it out of our system. But, it seems very inconsistent to me that permanent bans are handed out for candy for mass/consistent RDM which while annoying and does put a damper on playtime, isn’t inherently harmful. Teaming also gets pretty harsh penalties when it too can be relatively inconsequential but can get very severe punishment

Harassment as seen by recent events and several previous events that is particularly egregious and/or targeted, I feel is a lot more harmful than RDMing, teaming, etc. I’m not saying all harassment, egregious as it may be, should always be a permanent, but a more proactive approach should be considered. If the harasser is being immediately and particularly vitriolic in targeting a person especially in a way that attacks arbitrary factors about them as a person, a ban should be up for earlier consideration. Let them appeal on a forum if they think the punishment was too harsh. Secondly, if the harassment is clearly targeted towards a person who has expressed that it hurts them, it might be worth discussing with them which course of action would be best. There’s definitely no one size fits all approach to the issue. But, I think the severity of certain things should be taken more into consideration as these occasions occur and that things like this deserve more punishment than objectively less consequential things.

[Foxka]

I won't speak for upper staff team or anything but I would definitely like to say these particularly spicy situations are absolutely being looked at and taken more seriously than things like mass rdm(which is much easier to appeal!). Especially the most recent event is currently being looked at with more scrutiny.

[Dildo Shwaggins]

I won't speak for upper staff team or anything but I would definitely like to say these particularly spicy situations are absolutely being looked at and taken more seriously than things like mass rdm(which is much easier to appeal!). Especially the most recent event is currently being looked at with more scrutiny.

Yes, the current upper staff is certainly a lot more involved and it had been very positive. Like, a while back I wouldn’t have bothered putting something into the realm of discussion because it was guaranteed to fall on deaf ears where it was needed most. I have much more faith now that meaningful discussion can occur at more levels of the team/server, which before any issue is specifically addressed, is the most important step to begin with

[reinaberg]

A ban is up for immediate consideration for severe harassment. Bryan’s new point system means the player will receive a 1-day ban for the warning alone, then the victim may file a ban request on the forums if necessary. The issue with that incident isn’t the system, it’s the fact that the only staff member who wasn’t busy brushed it off and assumed someone else would deal with it. I believe that Bryan escalating what should have been a 1-day ban to a 1-week ban due to the severity of the harassment fits your expectations perfectly.

[RussEfarmer]

I've been saying the punishment scale for things is screwed up for years at this point, and yeah it's improved but it's still pretty stupid. Ranking on how easy it is to be banned, the most severe infraction on this server is mass RDM, which is an instant permaban... meanwhile to get a permaban breaking other rules, I would have to get warned for harassing someone four times, saying a racial slur eight times, making a pedophilia joke four times or threaten to leak someone's home address three times (key word, get warned for, and as we've seen recently, not all staff pay attention.) Obviously a good moderator will probably know to ban earlier/later for some of these things, but based on the staff guidelines alone, that's pretty dumb

I do think the warning system we have is pretty good I did not mention the in-between bans you need to actually get to the permaban, but compared to the instant ban clauses we have in our rules still, mainly for mass RDM and RDM and leave, what

EDIT: Just saw the response to Kaiwan's thread, a whole one week ban for harassment... wow so scary. We're putting transphobia by a regular player on the same scale as leaving with an unserved autoslay? Who's coming up with this?

[Dildo Shwaggins]

A ban is up for immediate consideration for severe harassment. Bryan’s new point system means the player will receive a 1-day ban for the warning alone, then the victim may file a ban request on the forums if necessary. The issue with that incident isn’t the system, it’s the fact that the only staff member who wasn’t busy brushed it off and assumed someone else would deal with it. I believe that Bryan escalating what should have been a 1-day ban to a 1-week ban due to the severity of the harassment fits your expectations perfectly.

I am in agreement it was handled better than it would have been in the past, I guess I’m just less merciful towards things that come across as particularly horrible. I think this falls under that and is way too light a punishment still.

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I've been saying the punishment scale for things is screwed up for years at this point, and yeah it's improved but it's still pretty stupid. Ranking on how easy it is to be banned, the most severe infraction on this server is mass RDM, which is an instant permaban... meanwhile to get a permaban breaking other rules, I would have to get warned for harassing someone four times, saying a racial slur eight times, making a pedophilia joke four times or threaten to leak someone's home address three times (key word, get warned for, and as we've seen recently, not all staff pay attention.) Obviously a good moderator will probably know to ban earlier/later for some of these things, but based on the staff guidelines alone, that's pretty dumb

I do think the warning system we have is pretty good I did not mention the in-between bans you need to actually get to the permaban, but compared to the instant ban clauses we have in our rules still, mainly for mass RDM and RDM and leave, what

EDIT: Just saw the response to Kaiwan's thread, a whole one week ban for harassment... wow so scary. We're putting transphobia by a regular player on the same scale as leaving with an unserved autoslay? Who's coming up with this?

The fact there’s a system set up at all now is the step in the right direction but I think the severity of it is superseded here and toeing the line of community ban consideration since this seems like the kind of player who would take it outside the realm of server chat and would be just as harmful on other platforms

[bryanbrr]

I've been saying the punishment scale for things is screwed up for years at this point, and yeah it's improved but it's still pretty stupid. Ranking on how easy it is to be banned, the most severe infraction on this server is mass RDM, which is an instant permaban... meanwhile to get a permaban breaking other rules, I would have to get warned for harassing someone four times, saying a racial slur eight times, making a pedophilia joke four times or threaten to leak someone's home address three times (key word, get warned for, and as we've seen recently, not all staff pay attention.) Obviously a good moderator will probably know to ban earlier/later for some of these things, but based on the staff guidelines alone, that's pretty dumb

I do think the warning system we have is pretty good I did not mention the in-between bans you need to actually get to the permaban, but compared to the instant ban clauses we have in our rules still, mainly for mass RDM and RDM and leave, what

Hi, resident Admin here. Let me elaborate on this more.

Let us be real, if someone mass rdm's and post an unban appeal, 9/10 it's going to be unbanned immediately if someone is genuinely new or sincere. On the other hand, if someone harasses other individuals consistently or slurs multiple times, they will face much harsher judgment. What's great about the new warning system is that EVERY WARNING counts. Those warnings stay on until the allotted expiration time and if you are constantly being warned, you WILL be banned fast.

The new warning structure was created with mercy in mind. If you harass someone, you get 1 chance to do better. If you don't, banned for 3-days. Come back and do it again? 1-week ban. Do it again, perma. An unban appeal on something like this will come with much more scrutiny. 

No system will be perfect but, if we can give chances for others to be better, we should. If they continually abuse that chance, they will be gone for a long time/for good.

[Ryan722]

TL;DR: I agree and think that we should decrease the ban length for Mass RDM (maybe a month), and increase or at least codify the punishment for subsequent harassment warnings after the first one. If the first instance of harassment is especially severe, we should consider an outright ban.

I agree with the points you bring up. Mass RDM and teaming are annoying to people trying to play the game, but have a less personal impact on individual players. It sucks to lose a T round unnecessarily, but it certainly cuts deeper to have your identity attacked (especially repeatedly). People hang out here to have a good time playing and chatting with people, not to be (seriously) made fun of or attacked. Straight up unnecessary hate towards players should be among the most seriously taken rules we have.

I think part of the reason the guidelines exist as they do now is that RDM and targeting are a bit more cut and dry than harassment. It's easy to say "this person killed three people who are mad about it and then left". It's harder to say "the comments this person made meet this harassment severity threshold, and warrant a ban of this length". There's obviously a lot of nuance and that should be considered, but part of the purpose of the recent guidelines revision was to increase consistency of punishments. Obviously our Mods and Admins are and should be able to use discretion when dealing with different situations, but there should be some care taken in adapting to harassment of different severity while also punishing people consistently and fairly.

A ban is up for immediate consideration for severe harassment. Bryan’s new point system means the player will receive a 1-day ban for the warning alone, then the victim may file a ban request on the forums if necessary.

This actually isn't the case AFAIK. Currently, a warning for harassment is worth 8 points, which doesn't quite meet the threshold for a day ban. We could add a separate 10 point warning preset, though harassment is already considered a "MAJOR punishment", so it may just be worth bumping it up to 10 points outright. Less malicious or severe goading could still fit under Trolling and Flaming (6 points).

[reinaberg]

-snip-

I am in agreement it was handled better than it would have been in the past, I guess I’m just less merciful towards things that come across as particularly horrible. I think this falls under that and is way too light a punishment still.

You and Russ are right. Now that Russ has pointed out the fact that this isn’t only sexual harassment, I completely agree that one week for severe sexual harassment combined with severe harassment on the basis of a person’s identity isn’t enough. At the very least, I think that fanta should be perma-muted after they return to the server.

Despite the punishment being too light, I still think that Bryan has created a great foundation to build on and has at least shown that harassment is being taken more seriously than before. If the system is altered with input from the people actually experiencing the harassment, I think it’s capable of significantly improving the environment of the server.

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This actually isn't the case AFAIK. Currently, a warning for harassment is worth 8 points, which doesn't quite meet the threshold for a day ban. We could add a separate 10 point warning preset, though harassment is already considered a "MAJOR punishment", so it may just be worth bumping it up to 10 points outright. Less malicious or severe goading could still fit under Trolling and Flaming (6 points).

Sexual harassment is 10 points.

[Ryan722]

-Snip-

Sexual harassment is 10 points.

Ah yes this is true, just had considered "Severe Harassment" and "Sexual Harassment" potentially different. Sexual harassment is severe harassment but severe harassment is not necessarily sexual harassment.