[Gabe]

I appreciate the mix of feedback given to this exquisite thread. I feel like I need to add a point to this conversation: autocomplete is totally not going to write this for me

Guys can you please give me a free legendary pet please I’m really new to this game and I really want to get a free legendary pet please and I will be really good at this please I really need it please and thank you very much for your offer please give me a legendary pet please because I really want one please and thank you for all your help. I love your videos so much and I’m so very grateful for all of your kindness and your support and your legendary pet for helping us out with the house and getting rid of the dog. I’m very happy that you’re going through all this stuff and that you are able to do something about it

[poop MANIAC(fecal frenzy!!!!!!!!]

Hi salter, great to hear from you! I don't want to dismiss what you said in your reply, but a lot of the points you addressed were addressed in my above mass reply. I'm glad you considered "walking in someone else's shoes," but I disagree that understanding a point of malice would be detrimental. Considering an unhealthy point of view gives us as individuals the opportunity to understand the source of a person's hate and, by extension, each other. Like I said, I don't think it is our responsibility as people to understand, nurture, guide and uplift our fellow human beings experiencing with us this most human of conditions, but we should leave the path open should some brave soul ever choose to take it, and perhaps even encourage ourselves to perhaps take that path more often than we otherwise wood.
Thank you for coming to my web post!

I totally understand where you are coming from and I encourage others to challenge other's opinions and viewpoints on certain topics. As such, I would be on the other side of the fence or maybe "on the fence" of what you stated as seeing another individuals perspective and disagreeing with the opposing sides point being malicious and detrimental. I could see that being a beneficial factor to considering a "unhealthy point," as you described but there would be certain situations, for example, sending hate to another player saying, "youre this and that and it originates to this and that I would be allowed to say this to you, etc." I'm not sure if I am phrasing that right or if it makes any cohesive sense, but just that, in my eyes, see it as a detriment for that type of situation and wouldn't be somewhat considered. I probably am contradicting my own points that I made previously but, I could see your perspective of it being beneficial and a learning experience for others in getting these types of statements and opinions and also encouraging others to take the same concept. I am glad to be able to talk about this with you and hopefully get more statements from you and consider one's side.

I understand completely. However, what I am suggesting is not that such behavior be excused by that sort of relativistic consideration. My focus is on improving the tone of discussion, and overall health and transparency of the community! I don't ask that the established institution change the way it operates or surrender some of its power, instead I think that we live in a society, and as a society can approach those rightfully marginalized beyond the conventions and obligations of our power structure to build each other up, to develop a mutual understanding, and to help solve our conflicts rather than push them away. I believe we as gamers can all get along, if only we just tried...
So happy to chat! It's awesome to hear from you.

---

I appreciate the mix of feedback given to this exquisite thread. I feel like I need to add a point to this conversation: autocomplete is totally not going to write this for me

Guys can you please give me a free legendary pet please I’m really new to this game and I really want to get a free legendary pet please and I will be really good at this please I really need it please and thank you very much for your offer please give me a legendary pet please because I really want one please and thank you for all your help. I love your videos so much and I’m so very grateful for all of your kindness and your support and your legendary pet for helping us out with the house and getting rid of the dog. I’m very happy that you’re going through all this stuff and that you are able to do something about it

With respect, gonna have to disagree with you on this one. But I get what you mean!

[chelllman]

I don't understand how you have the time or energy to come up with such an impressive amount of word vomit for that which could be condensed down to about 1-2 sentences.
I'm rarely this critical, but your lengthy essays are the very definition of talking a lot, but saying very little.

However, to address what you've said, our community would be significantly smaller if we tolerated harassment, racism, sexism, etc.  The number of people that want to be in to this community, have fun, and not be toxic is significantly larger than those that want to be "turds in the punch bowl" like Fanta.  More importantly, allowing harassment, racism, sexism, etc. would de-facto mean that we condone such behavior.  If it ever got to the point where we as a community decided that such things are okay, then that would be my cue to leave the community.

As an admin, I feel the disrespectful tone in your post does yourself, your position, and the community you represent a disservice. I don't think insulting people's writing styles or dismissing them offhand is particularly productive for a layman, but in your shoes you are setting a poor example of vitriol and negativity for the people over which you administrate. I recall a thread about this topic recently, and I think if you spend some time considering what the people of prophunt had to say it might do you some good, and help you uphold the expectations that come with your place. Remember, you can always be better, no matter who you are, so I want to give you this positive message: Be better!

But as an individual, I agree that the important issue of racism and sexism in our gaming community is not something to be taken lightly, and should never be condoned. Silence is, after all, no better than cooperation. To reiterate what I already said, I don't think people with undesirable mindsets should be allowed in our community, rather that we should be mindful of our tone when making our condemnations. And we should hold these violations dear to our heart, as a reminder of what not to be, and how to rise above hate.

I think you misunderstood the meaning of what I said.   Superfluous language makes your point muddled, your arguments would be much clearer with less verbose language.   If you go through my previous posts you'll find that I am a very firm believer in protecting the members of this community.  Let me explain exactly why what you said doesn't work:

How does one resolve a dispute? By declaring the righteousness of one party, and pigeonholing another? Would it not be better to meet unhelpful criticisms with invitation for elaboration? Rather than be silenced and forgotten, these voices should be directly addressed, conversed with in the open and made to understand their harmful ways of thinking. When confronted with these voices, would it not be best to prove them wrong in their convictions by clearing their haze of emotion and negativity with open-minded logic and reasoning rather than excluding them from the conversation altogether?

The last thing we want is to debate people with racist, sexist, transphobic, or otherwise hateful messages on our forums.  Here's why: by debating them, you are giving them a platform to spew their hateful speech.  Should they be talk to, debated with, and challenged as you said? Yes, but not on our public forums.  By tolerating that kind of hateful speech even under the guise of debate to hopefully change them, you are exposing the community to their hateful views.  Even more importantly, you're entire idea relies on people faithfully listening and trying to understand how their views are wrong.  Unfortunately, humans are more often than not going to double down on their ideas when challenges.  Even more of a problem is that some people will intentionally troll and abuse the community under the guise of "I'm just having a debate about my views!" so that they can attack other groups of people.

[poop MANIAC(fecal frenzy!!!!!!!!]

I don't understand how you have the time or energy to come up with such an impressive amount of word vomit for that which could be condensed down to about 1-2 sentences.
I'm rarely this critical, but your lengthy essays are the very definition of talking a lot, but saying very little.

However, to address what you've said, our community would be significantly smaller if we tolerated harassment, racism, sexism, etc.  The number of people that want to be in to this community, have fun, and not be toxic is significantly larger than those that want to be "turds in the punch bowl" like Fanta.  More importantly, allowing harassment, racism, sexism, etc. would de-facto mean that we condone such behavior.  If it ever got to the point where we as a community decided that such things are okay, then that would be my cue to leave the community.

As an admin, I feel the disrespectful tone in your post does yourself, your position, and the community you represent a disservice. I don't think insulting people's writing styles or dismissing them offhand is particularly productive for a layman, but in your shoes you are setting a poor example of vitriol and negativity for the people over which you administrate. I recall a thread about this topic recently, and I think if you spend some time considering what the people of prophunt had to say it might do you some good, and help you uphold the expectations that come with your place. Remember, you can always be better, no matter who you are, so I want to give you this positive message: Be better!

But as an individual, I agree that the important issue of racism and sexism in our gaming community is not something to be taken lightly, and should never be condoned. Silence is, after all, no better than cooperation. To reiterate what I already said, I don't think people with undesirable mindsets should be allowed in our community, rather that we should be mindful of our tone when making our condemnations. And we should hold these violations dear to our heart, as a reminder of what not to be, and how to rise above hate.

I think you misunderstood the meaning of what I said.   Superfluous language makes your point muddled, your arguments would be much clearer with less verbose language.   If you go through my previous posts you'll find that I am a very firm believer in protecting the members of this community.  Let me explain exactly why what you said doesn't work:

How does one resolve a dispute? By declaring the righteousness of one party, and pigeonholing another? Would it not be better to meet unhelpful criticisms with invitation for elaboration? Rather than be silenced and forgotten, these voices should be directly addressed, conversed with in the open and made to understand their harmful ways of thinking. When confronted with these voices, would it not be best to prove them wrong in their convictions by clearing their haze of emotion and negativity with open-minded logic and reasoning rather than excluding them from the conversation altogether?

The last thing we want is to debate people with racist, sexist, transphobic, or otherwise hateful messages on our forums.  Here's why: by debating them, you are giving them a platform to spew their hateful speech.  Should they be talk to, debated with, and challenged as you said? Yes, but not on our public forums.  By tolerating that kind of hateful speech even under the guise of debate to hopefully change them, you are exposing the community to their hateful views.  Even more importantly, you're entire idea relies on people faithfully listening and trying to understand how their views are wrong.  Unfortunately, humans are more often than not going to double down on their ideas when challenges.  Even more of a problem is that some people will intentionally troll and abuse the community under the guise of "I'm just having a debate about my views!" so that they can attack other groups of people.

I disagree, I feel that I say what I mean as clearly as can be done, only I have the sneaking suspicion that many among us choose instead not read the whole of what I write, and so that is where misunderstandings come.

I agree that hate speech is a serious, harmful and very real issue. I am not saying that it should be tolerated, that this forum should be made a debate hall for the black-hearted rogues who would choose to do something so terrible as to demean and dismiss a person simply for being themselves, rather that there is an issue within ourselves that we are as a community have thus far not addressed, or only addressed in part. It is not a demand that we allow such vile, toxic and dangerous language be freely espoused on our forum, it is a plea that we, in addition to our established codes of conduct, do not effort to erase these mistakes from our midst so that all may see where we as individuals have erred, to help create a more open and inviting environment where conflict can be resolved, rather than sent away. And I don't mean resolved in some great big discussion thread, the forums are a place for community discussions, not a place for reconciliation and healing. But I think the forum environment could be improved so that individuals are afforded more tools and context with which to respectfully approach their fellows.

There is some administrative practice that could help with this but largely I am suggesting that we as people keep our hearts open fight hate with love, ignorance with understanding and most of all, recognize that though we may have disputes we are really all as gamers a part of one big family.

[tiefling lesbian]

I do not think it is a good idea to leave people who post inflammatory and offensive things to remain in the community regardless of the kind of "healing" that can be brought about by looking back on these posts. I think it's better to get them out of here and bring the community back to a safer place for these marginalized players.

I would like to share the concept of Popper’s Tolerance Paradox here. This recent situation was willful and intentional intolerance and as a community by being intolerant to such intolerance it makes it a better community for all

I really can't tell if shitpost, but just in case?

I don't think it's in the community's best interest to meet people who express hateful/discriminatory views where they're at and try to make them see reason. This isn't a correctional facility, or /r/ChangeMyView. We want a welcoming environment for people to come and have a good time hanging out and playing games, and tolerating hate towards others on the basis of their identity isn't conducive to that imo. Maliciously invalidating someone's identity isn't an "opinion". Asking people on the receiving end of targeted harassment "well have you considered that their views may just be different from yours?" just adds insult to injury.

Whatever you're smoking or injecting, I need a hit of that too.
"Tolerating" the behaviour we saw from Fanta and try to reason with them while they double down on shitty takes only ends up in setting a precedent that hate is allowed here. It brings more toxic figures in. You end up being taken over by toxic players and all the people who are sick of their behaviour just end up leaving
I think there are enough true gamer communities like that already for one to join if they really want to do a changemymind thing

i’d agree with this if we were just talking about normal disagreements and whoever is on the minority opinion side… by that i mean like just general things like politics, economics, crime, etc like real stuff not hateful comments. but with the recent event i don’t think doing something like this is in the server’s best interest just because of how bad that precedent is. depending on who was around whenever someone said or did something it’ll still be brought up later on because stuff spreads here.

it's okay to say slurs because that's just my unique perspective and i'm the truly marginalized one because people are trying to force me to stop saying slurs (oppression) (censorship) (1984)

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to assert that people whith wrong opinions or who say no good rotten things shouldn't be banned, quite the contrary! The points I am attempting to address are twofold: 1) Hate in all forms should never be tolerated; even hate which makes us feel righteous or justified. Hating the haters does nobody favors, it helps nobody and gets us nowhere but way down low. I'm not saying that we have a responsibility as individual people to help uplift our fellow humans in any way we can, that sort of thing is very hard and I don't think any of us feel like doing it. Rather, we should avoid a community tone that responds with hate, regardless of the subject. Disagreement perhaps (certainly in the case of that which we know by moral absolute to be wrong), and dismantling problematic ideas for sure, but disdain is never healthy. Remember, hate has no place in our community. 2) The staff have a practice of omitting certain portions of the conversation, almost always decreasing its scope and the scale of community involvement. Again, I'm not saying people with the incorrect views shouldn't be punished and banned and such, rather that by punishing and then removing their involvement in the discussion through the practice of deletion steals from the community often valuable pieces of context, and robs the offender from the chance to reread their statement and confront just exactly what they were thinking at the time. Introspection is not done in a vacuum, we can never learn from ourselves if we cannot remember ourselves, and I believe the health of the community depends on its ability to confront its own shortcomings and failures with open, honest discussion that can be viewed with transparency by all parties, for better or worse.

Honestly, i think the best thing to do is to just go to the store and buy a few things and then go back to the store to get the stuff you need to get it for the next day or two and then go back to the store for the next day or two to get it and then go back to the store again and get it for you and then you can just go back to the store and get it and then you can just get it for free and then you can just buy it for the next day or the next day and then you can just pay for it and then you can just have it for the next day or whatever you want to do it for the next day or you can just go back to the store and then you can just get it for the next day or something like that and then you can just go to the store or something like that and then you can just pay for the next day or the next day and then you can just go to the store for the next day or whatever you want to do the next day or two and then you can just go to the store and then you can just go to the store you can just buy the stuff and then you can just go to the store or whatever you want to do it for you and then you can go to the store for the next day or two or whatever you want to do it you can just go to the store and you can go to the store but you can go to your house and you can just go to the store you can go to my house and you can get the stuff you want to go to the store or whatever you want to do whatever you want to get the stuff that you want to do the stuff that you need to do the things that you want to do it you can do the stuff that you can do it you can do that you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can. 

I don’t think you can do it but i can do it and you can do it and i can do it for you and you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and then you can do it and you have a good job so i think that’s a great way of getting people into the game so that they don’t get into it too long or they don’t get to spend money and they don’t get bored of the games and they don’t want you getting into the hobby so you just want you can play with your money so they don’t get a free games you don’t get to do the games that they don’t want you to do the same as you get to do all of them and you get a lot more fun you can get more people to do it and you get more money you can get some friends and you get to get more friends you get to have a good time you just like to be a little more people to play games you get more friends that are like a little bit of fun you can play with you get more fun you can do that and you get a little more money you can get a little better people that are good friends that you want and you get to do all the stuff that you’re gonna want and then. 

In short, you can do it all the time and you can do it again and again and again and again you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do it again and you can do. 

Thank you.

Your'e welcome.

Got no fuckin' clue what this is referencing, but it was a pretty good read. 
I might start using the centered format for some of my posts.

Oh, I think you know.

I don't understand how you have the time or energy to come up with such an impressive amount of word vomit for that which could be condensed down to about 1-2 sentences.
I'm rarely this critical, but your lengthy essays are the very definition of talking a lot, but saying very little.

However, to address what you've said, our community would be significantly smaller if we tolerated harassment, racism, sexism, etc.  The number of people that want to be in to this community, have fun, and not be toxic is significantly larger than those that want to be "turds in the punch bowl" like Fanta.  More importantly, allowing harassment, racism, sexism, etc. would de-facto mean that we condone such behavior.  If it ever got to the point where we as a community decided that such things are okay, then that would be my cue to leave the community.

As an admin, I feel the disrespectful tone in your post does yourself, your position, and the community you represent a disservice. I don't think insulting people's writing styles or dismissing them offhand is particularly productive for a layman, but in your shoes you are setting a poor example of vitriol and negativity for the people over which you administrate. I recall a thread about this topic recently, and I think if you spend some time considering what the people of prophunt had to say it might do you some good, and help you uphold the expectations that come with your place. Remember, you can always be better, no matter who you are, so I want to give you this positive message: Be better!

But as an individual, I agree that the important issue of racism and sexism in our gaming community is not something to be taken lightly, and should never be condoned. Silence is, after all, no better than cooperation. To reiterate what I already said, I don't think people with undesirable mindsets should be allowed in our community, rather that we should be mindful of our tone when making our condemnations. And we should hold these violations dear to our heart, as a reminder of what not to be, and how to rise above hate.

I must say, your elaborate “serious” shitposts are quite impressive

I think that this post is unhelpful and reductive, but I appreciate that you had the opportunity to speak your mind.

i love you mad pooper.

edit so comment doesn’t get deleted: I completely agree or congrats on that.

I love you too. I love all my friends, and I would like to think that everyone here, even if they don't know it yet, is my friend. Friends don't always get along, but remember: As long as we have friendship, we have each other. Some food for thought.

nah i hate homophobes and incels and do not owe them patience, understanding, or politeness
like others have said, debating bigots only serves to give them a platform to spread their bigotry and portray their views as a potentially valid option to bystanders, very few people who think this way are capable of or willing to engage in introspection and will gleefully lap up every shot at relevance and bad faith engagement given to them with no intention of changing their ways
leaving their posts up doesn't "give them a chance to reflect" on it, it just keeps their hate open for anyone to come across, people who weren't involved and just see the message that was left up will be left to assume that that kind of message must be okay since it's still there

[Salty]

some people understood the memo, others need to pull the stick out of their ass.


Great work on doing what you do best my friend.

[poop MANIAC(fecal frenzy!!!!!!!!]

nah i hate homophobes and incels and do not owe them patience, understanding, or politeness
like others have said, debating bigots only serves to give them a platform to spread their bigotry and portray their views as a potentially valid option to bystanders, very few people who think this way are capable of or willing to engage in introspection and will gleefully lap up every shot at relevance and bad faith engagement given to them with no intention of changing their ways
leaving their posts up doesn't "give them a chance to reflect" on it, it just keeps their hate open for anyone to come across, people who weren't involved and just see the message that was left up will be left to assume that that kind of message must be okay since it's still there

A salient point that brings us back to the opening statement! So you're saying that reducing the whole of an entire human being into one, easily digested, poignant label is how we determine whose voice do and do not matter? I think that's a good argument, and definitely should be considered. After all, when we reduce a person to their assigned labels is when we can most clearly draw the line between a good person with a good label, like gay, and a bad person with a bad label, like bigot. Through these identifying phrases we can easily identify who is someone deserving of compassion and respect and who is an un-person, one that we should meet with bile and bloodshed. After all, we know it to be true that very few people who have these sorts of labels are even human enough to engage in introspection! And you're right, why should we give those we can safely identify as un-persons our patience, understanding, or politeness? After all, what do we as individuals owe them? Should it really be our responsibility as decent human beings to do our best to generate positivity and uplift the people around us? That sounds like a lot of hard work, and I don't think ANY of us feel like doing it. You make a good point, and you are valid!

However, though I follow your train of thought, I respectfully disagree. You see, I think that every person has room for development and personal growth, and the potential to achieve that growth. I subscribe to the notion of "Dream it, think it, do it." When you dream of a positive world, that positivity bleeds into your thoughts, and you start to think more positively. When you start to think more positively, those thoughts bleed into your actions, giving you a more positive effect on the world around you. By doing positive, uplifting actions, I believe we as a community can rise above hate and see a more positive change on the community at large. Maybe even on gamers as a whole.

some people understood the memo, others need to pull the stick out of their ass.


Great work on doing what you do best my friend.

Thanks doll, not quite how I would have put it but I do believe some people are stuck in a negative rut that feeds back when dealing with other negative people. Hit the quan!

[Ryan722]

some people understood the memo, others need to pull the stick out of their ass.


Great work on doing what you do best my friend.

tbf... Poe's Law

[Summer]

Yes I agree. Everyone’s opinions do matter, but it’s better to keep them to yourselves because nobody but you care about them. But be warned, we addressed toxicity before and it made it even more toxic.

[tiefling lesbian]

nah i hate homophobes and incels and do not owe them patience, understanding, or politeness

like others have said, debating bigots only serves to give them a platform to spread their bigotry and portray their views as a potentially valid option to bystanders, very few people who think this way are capable of or willing to engage in introspection and will gleefully lap up every shot at relevance and bad faith engagement given to them with no intention of changing their ways
leaving their posts up doesn't "give them a chance to reflect" on it, it just keeps their hate open for anyone to come across, people who weren't involved and just see the message that was left up will be left to assume that that kind of message must be okay since it's still there

A salient point that brings us back to the opening statement! So you're saying that reducing the whole of an entire human being into one, easily digested, poignant label is how we determine whose voice do and do not matter? I think that's a good argument, and definitely should be considered. After all, when we reduce a person to their assigned labels is when we can most clearly draw the line between a good person with a good label, like gay, and a bad person with a bad label, like bigot. Through these identifying phrases we can easily identify who is someone deserving of compassion and respect and who is an un-person, one that we should meet with bile and bloodshed. After all, we know it to be true that very few people who have these sorts of labels are even human enough to engage in introspection! And you're right, why should we give those we can safely identify as un-persons our patience, understanding, or politeness? After all, what do we as individuals owe them? Should it really be our responsibility as decent human beings to do our best to generate positivity and uplift the people around us? That sounds like a lot of hard work, and I don't think ANY of us feel like doing it. You make a good point, and you are valid!

However, though I follow your train of thought, I respectfully disagree. You see, I think that every person has room for development and personal growth, and the potential to achieve that growth. I subscribe to the notion of "Dream it, think it, do it." When you dream of a positive world, that positivity bleeds into your thoughts, and you start to think more positively. When you start to think more positively, those thoughts bleed into your actions, giving you a more positive effect on the world around you. By doing positive, uplifting actions, I believe we as a community can rise above hate and see a more positive change on the community at large. Maybe even on gamers as a whole.

some people understood the memo, others need to pull the stick out of their ass.


Great work on doing what you do best my friend.

Thanks doll, not quite how I would have put it but I do believe some people are stuck in a negative rut that feeds back when dealing with other negative people. Hit the quan!

yes, homophobes' and incels' voices do not matter
no, i do not have compassion or respect for homophobes or incels
it truly is simple as that, being nice to bigots does not make them stop being bigoted
"bigots are the true victims" is such a weird hill to die on dude