[tiefling lesbian]

Tiefling asking members of the community about the goings on in private discord servers: While Foxka may have asked Tiefling for feedback on his behavior, in my opinion, Tiefling asking about people messing with the guidelines is not an appropriate response. Foxka is asking about things that he has done. How is Tiefling asking about something completely unrelated to him an appropriate response? "Hey manager, I'm planning on asking for a promotion. Are there any behavioral concerns I should work on before asking?" "Yeah, what do you know about the guy on the 5th floor crapping in the toilet without flushing and smearing poop on the walls?" It doesn't make sense and is not an appropriate line of questioning, at that moment. At least answer his question first, then ask if he knows anything about people messing with the guidelines. Moreover, if you already knew, or had an idea of, who was doing the editing, why are people unrelated to the situation being questioned? Go directly to the people who are causing an issue.

Concealing rule breaking that you were directly informed about is relevant feedback for potential staff. I asked for clarification as they had previously refused to give an honest answer.

Tiefling staffing on another server: Some people don't see an issue with this. I personally don't think that anyone should be staff on multiple servers. I really don't think that an admin should be staff on other servers, especially another server of the same game mode. How many CEOs, CIOs, CTOs, CFOs, board members, etc. do you see on the executive teams of other companies and organizations? I'm going to say not many, if any. Heck, how many times have you heard of regular employees having non-compete clauses in their contracts? I'm sure at least a few times. Why? Because it's a clear conflict of interest. There is no way that someone can give the same time, energy, care, passion, respect, etc. to one organization/server as they do another. Let alone the potential of sharing trade secrets with the other organization/server (I know. I know. "it's only Garry's Mod. Not real life!!!!!). One server is going to be the lesser of the two. That is just human nature. If the argument that Tiefling should be allowed to staff on another server is that the server is for friends, I ask why is there even staff on that server? Is RDM and rule breaking that prevalent and rampant that staff is needed to control a group of friends?

Dinks is not a business, I'm not a CEO, I don't get a paycheck. I haven't spent that much time on thaye's server, and neither of us have any desire to take anything from dinks. It's a server that is primarily for friends, but TTT as a gamemode can't be sustained by just one group of friends, so it's public for randoms to join in. Respectfully, this isn't your place (or anyone else in this thread) to worry about. Like I said, I've already told Dink about it. If he decides he has an issue with it, he'll make it known.

Tiefling not knowing basic rules: Tiefling telling staff that the person who killed Foxka should not be slain because Foxka killed an RDMing player, and Foxka's DNA was on that RDMing player is completely egregious. It's not a hard situation to piece together. There is no need for "telepathic abilities." Yes, this is a social deduction game where people often lie. But if you don't have concrete proof that the person is lying, then you either have to take them at their word or put, and you'll never believe this one, suspicion on the person. That's the entire point of having a separate category for things that you aren't entirely sure of, but think are plausible, but you have no definite proof; for reasons like this. This is something I have said for years: If someone has a traitor weapon and says that they got it from killing a traitor, but you have no proof that they did or didn't, are you going to kill the person immediately? I wouldn't. I would think, "hmm, that's suspicious, but I have no proof that they're lying." And if you did kill the person, and it turns out that they killed a traitor and got the weapon from their dead body, guess what? That's RDM and you should be slain. It doesn't take a doctorate in abstract thinking and philosophy to come to the correct conclusion. It should be common sense. And if it isn't common sense, it is explicitly stated in the rules that the person who killed Foxka should be slain. This one event should, at the very least, necessitate a talking to regarding knowledge of basic rules.

Then we should simply remove DNA if you can make yourself unKOSable by simply claiming you were RDMed. Enabling traitors to immunize themselves to DNA by threatening reports to anyone who kills them is not a logical conclusion, but that is what you are advocating.

Finally, I have no idea when we put so much emphasis on being a voice for a group of people in such high regard as a condition of being an admin. If that's the case, then we need an admin for black people, Hispanic people, the disabled, the poor, the downtrodden, and every other human condition out there. Yes, I understand that certain groups are often mistreated and misrepresented. But if you treat everyone fairly, those in the minority, and the majority, will be dealt with the same way; fairly. If you're an admin, you should be a voice for everyone, not favor a certain group of people. I don't care if you're a cactus from Massachusetts or a polar bear from New Mexico, the job as an admin is to ensure that everybody is welcomed and treated with respect.

This is just a strawman. You can only treat everyone so fairly when only one perspective is represented in staff, and you can only have so much perspective in women's and LGBT issues if you aren't a woman or LGBT. Regardless, you are entirely misrepresenting what has been said on the matter.

[茶 Tea]

Tiefling staffing on another server: Some people don't see an issue with this. I personally don't think that anyone should be staff on multiple servers. I really don't think that an admin should be staff on other servers, especially another server of the same game mode. How many CEOs, CIOs, CTOs, CFOs, board members, etc. do you see on the executive teams of other companies and organizations? I'm going to say not many, if any. Heck, how many times have you heard of regular employees having non-compete clauses in their contracts? I'm sure at least a few times. Why? Because it's a clear conflict of interest. There is no way that someone can give the same time, energy, care, passion, respect, etc. to one organization/server as they do another. Let alone the potential of sharing trade secrets with the other organization/server (I know. I know. "it's only Garry's Mod. Not real life!!!!!). One server is going to be the lesser of the two. That is just human nature. If the argument that Tiefling should be allowed to staff on another server is that the server is for friends, I ask why is there even staff on that server? Is RDM and rule breaking that prevalent and rampant that staff is needed to control a group of friends?

this is silly. it doesn't matter if one server has less time devoted to it. you are NOT getting paid for your time.

Finally, I have no idea when we put so much emphasis on being a voice for a group of people in such high regard as a condition of being an admin. If that's the case, then we need an admin for black people, Hispanic people, the disabled, the poor, the downtrodden, and every other human condition out there. Yes, I understand that certain groups are often mistreated and misrepresented. But if you treat everyone fairly, those in the minority, and the majority, will be dealt with the same way; fairly. If you're an admin, you should be a voice for everyone, not favor a certain group of people. I don't care if you're a cactus from Massachusetts or a polar bear from New Mexico, the job as an admin is to ensure that everybody is welcomed and treated with respect.

the other two admins don't do this though. that's the problem

Okay, I have refrained from posting all this time, but Tea your really starting to piss me off with trying to drag Icey and I into this without know any deals about our life, what we have experience with or anything.  I may not be part of any of these groups but I know more then enough on how to prevent miss treatment and "stand up" for them.   So if you can kindly stop trying to bring people not involved into this and go take a reality check, it would be much appreciated.

i'm gonna be honest, it's less about you. i appreciate that you have a life outside of dinkleberg garry's mod and other things to do. that said, given that we're talking about removing an admin of this server, a big part of that discussion is what the admin team would look like without her. i'm trying my best not to point fingers because i know you have a life outside of this but there's only so much i can do when this is the conversation we're having.

[Veni Vidi Vivi]

On behalf of someone who wishes to remain anonymous: Tiefling doesnt get to represent the lgbtq community, nor should she try to. She should only be offering her insight as a member of said community.

She doesn't get the choice of whether or not she "represents lgbtq". She has and will receive different treatment for being openly queer and whether Anyone likes it or not she will be seen as representative of queer interests simply for existing while queer. Not that anything really happens to do with lgbtq issues on this server anyway. This is such a weird addon and a heavily Privileged take. 

really dont care who its on the behalf of, you still posted this cringe.

-1 to this entire thread, lock it already.

[moocow]

snap

snip

 I may not be part of any of these groups but I know more then enough on how to prevent miss treatment and "stand up" for them. 

if i could help add some perspective on why people don’t really trust non-marginlilized groups to protect marginalized groups, because it’s bot something personal 

those outside of those groups can be and are well aware of the general oppression that the groups suffer from, but not every last dig that people like to throw at these groups, so it makes it difficult to trust that you’re gonna be protected when you’re not being represented by people who know what to protect against 

an example of this, a conversation in TTT staff chat a few months ago regarding wether or not “nigga” should be allowed to say by non black members of the server, one of the admins in the discussion used a derogatory term to refer to black people. now im giving the benefit of the doubt here, he probably didn’t know it was derogatory, but thats why its important to have the representation there, so there’s someone who *knows* that it’s derogatory and can effectively protect against people who know how to fly under the radar in terms of their bigotry

you may know enough about bigotry and oppression, but you will never have the knowledge and experiences of people who are a part of those groups, and that’s an extremely vital part of knowing how to protect

[cow]

Tiefling staffing on another server: Some people don't see an issue with this. I personally don't think that anyone should be staff on multiple servers. I really don't think that an admin should be staff on other servers, especially another server of the same game mode. 

tghis is crazxy to me holy shit, its fa fucking game, it doesnt matter if CEOS or whatever do or dont go thorugh multiple companys thats real life, tjats a creazy ass comparison. this tis a fucking game mode on a 20 year old game and staffing multiple plasce is NOT an issue anywhere and never has been EVER. im, tired of this being brought up. stop yapping about this part, its really not that deep i havent read too fart in but this makes me so mad to reafd so mcuh there should not be any issues with this, thers no one being told yo wuiot dinks anf go theere instead.

[EpicGuy]

Concealing rule breaking that you were directly informed about is relevant feedback for potential staff. I asked for clarification as they had previously refused to give an honest answer.

Is Foxka obligated to answer your question? This is a legitimate question, I'm not defending Foxka. He was not staff at the time of the incident so he, in my opinion, did not need to tell you, or any other admin, what was going on. Would it have been helpful? Yes. Would that be the right thing to do? Sure. But was he obligated to do so? I don't believe so.

Dinks is not a business, I'm not a CEO, I don't get a paycheck. I haven't spent that much time on thaye's server, and neither of us have any desire to take anything from dinks. It's a server that is primarily for friends, but TTT as a gamemode can't be sustained by just one group of friends, so it's public for randoms to join in. Respectfully, this isn't your place (or anyone else in this thread) to worry about. Like I said, I've already told Dink about it. If he decides he has an issue with it, he'll make it known.

You are correct, Dinkleberg's is not a business, you are not a CEO, and you do not receive a paycheck. I'm glad that you, myself, and no one else gets a paycheck to staff this server. Could you imagine getting a paycheck to staff a GMod server? Anyway, you're correct that it is not my place to worry about a TTT admin staffing on another TTT server. You'll have to forgive me for being intrigued by an admin of a TTT server staffing on another TTT server. If Dinkleberg himself has an issue, I am sure he will arise from his slumber and handle it. If Dinkleberg has no issue with this, so be it. His name is on the logo, not mine.

PandaInPants, you'll have to forgive me for forgetting about the changes that the FTC made regarding non-competes last week. It is something that I thought about, but I did not do my due diligence in researching at midnight. You'll also have to forgive my ignorance in not knowing that Sir Richard Branson oversees some 400 businesses, all under the corporation that he owns and founded, not overseeing businesses that someone else owns and founded. How could I overlook the fact that someone who owns a child company through his own corporation might have a hand in how the company operates? Nevertheless, there is no earthly way that he is spending equal amounts of time overseeing all 400 companies. It is impossible. But I will digress because it is not my place, nor anyone else's place, to worry about staff members staffing other servers. But before I fully digress, I will say that it is against the law for directors and officers to be on the board of a competitor's company, something that the website you linked also states.

Then we should simply remove DNA if you can make yourself unKOSable by simply claiming you were RDMed. Enabling traitors to immunize themselves to DNA by threatening reports to anyone who kills them is not a logical conclusion, but that is what you are advocating.

Not at all what I am saying. Foxka happened to be a traitor in this specific scenario, but the principle of the matter still stands. If Player A says that they killed an RDMer (and was actually RDMed by the RDMer), and player B doesn't believe Player A and kills Player A, Player B is getting slain for RDM. It doesn't matter if Player A is a traitor or not. No one is enabling traitors to immunize themselves. No one is stopping someone from mowing down a person they don't believe. If anything, everyone is receiving the same amount of immunization. If Player B didn't see Player A kill the RDMer, and can't verify that Player A was being RDMed, they have to either believe Player A or put suspicion on Player A. This is no different than having the same weapon that was used to kill someone. You have circumstantial evidence that has yet to be proven. So you either take the situation at face value and believe what Player A has said, be skeptical and put suspicion on Player A, or shoot Player A and RDM them. Those are the only options. And if you RDM Player A, the logs should be able to very clearly tell if Player A was RDMed or not.

This is just a strawman. You can only treat everyone so fairly when only one perspective is represented in staff, and you can only have so much perspective in women's and LGBT issues if you aren't a woman or LGBT. Regardless, you are entirely misrepresenting what has been said on the matter.

If we can only treat everyone so fairly when only one perspective is represented in staff, then you would agree that we need more diverse staff, which includes black people, Hispanic people, Asian people, etc. Regardless, we don't need to have a representative from every possible permutation of a human being on staff if the goal of the staff is for every player to be treated fairly and respectfully. Does it help to have representatives of these different races and creeds on the admin team? Of course. I am not arguing against that. But I don't believe that I am misrepresenting what has been said on the matter when someone of their own volition said, "[tiefling] is the only ttt admin that truly can [create a safe space for feminine presenting or lgbtq/queer people] since she's the only one with the proper insight and experience to do so." Can white people not create a safe space for minorities because they aren't a minority? I'd disagree with that statement. Look at abolitionists during the Civil War. All I am saying (because I failed to explicitly say this last night) is that it shouldn't matter what gender you are, what race you are, whatever. All that should matter is that the staff members of the server are doing their best to make everyone feel safe, welcomed, and entertained. The mark of a good admin shouldn't be who the admin is speaking for. The mark of a good admin should be if they are administrating fairly, justly, and equally.


See what happens when threads are allowed to stay open? Discussions can be had. Thanks, web staff.

[Ryan]

Then we should simply remove DNA if you can make yourself unKOSable by simply claiming you were RDMed. Enabling traitors to immunize themselves to DNA by threatening reports to anyone who kills them is not a logical conclusion, but that is what you are advocating.

Its not that we think it should be this way. Its that it is how the rules are written. I've had this conversation with you before, but you are an admin and if you disagree with a rule there is literally nobody in a better position to make a change to the rule.

Please. I hate the rule just as much as you, but that doesnt mean that we can just choose not to follow it without changing the scripture.

[moocow]

Concealing rule breaking that you were directly informed about is relevant feedback for potential staff. I asked for clarification as they had previously refused to give an honest answer.

Is Foxka obligated to answer your question? This is a legitimate question, I'm not defending Foxka. He was not staff at the time of the incident so he, in my opinion, did not need to tell you, or any other admin, what was going on. Would it have been helpful? Yes. Would that be the right thing to do? Sure. But was he obligated to do so? I don't believe so.

Dinks is not a business, I'm not a CEO, I don't get a paycheck. I haven't spent that much time on thaye's server, and neither of us have any desire to take anything from dinks. It's a server that is primarily for friends, but TTT as a gamemode can't be sustained by just one group of friends, so it's public for randoms to join in. Respectfully, this isn't your place (or anyone else in this thread) to worry about. Like I said, I've already told Dink about it. If he decides he has an issue with it, he'll make it known.

You are correct, Dinkleberg's is not a business, you are not a CEO, and you do not receive a paycheck. I'm glad that you, myself, and no one else gets a paycheck to staff this server. Could you imagine getting a paycheck to staff a GMod server? Anyway, you're correct that it is not my place to worry about a TTT admin staffing on another TTT server. You'll have to forgive me for being intrigued by an admin of a TTT server staffing on another TTT server. If Dinkleberg himself has an issue, I am sure he will arise from his slumber and handle it. If Dinkleberg has no issue with this, so be it. His name is on the logo, not mine.

PandaInPants, you'll have to forgive me for forgetting about the changes that the FTC made regarding non-competes last week. It is something that I thought about, but I did not do my due diligence in researching at midnight. You'll also have to forgive my ignorance in not knowing that Sir Richard Branson oversees some 400 businesses, all under the corporation that he owns and founded, not overseeing businesses that someone else owns and founded. How could I overlook the fact that someone who owns a child company through his own corporation might have a hand in how the company operates? Nevertheless, there is no earthly way that he is spending equal amounts of time overseeing all 400 companies. It is impossible. But I will digress because it is not my place, nor anyone else's place, to worry about staff members staffing other servers. But before I fully digress, I will say that it is against the law for directors and officers to be on the board of a competitor's company, something that the website you linked also states.

Then we should simply remove DNA if you can make yourself unKOSable by simply claiming you were RDMed. Enabling traitors to immunize themselves to DNA by threatening reports to anyone who kills them is not a logical conclusion, but that is what you are advocating.

Not at all what I am saying. Foxka happened to be a traitor in this specific scenario, but the principle of the matter still stands. If Player A says that they killed an RDMer (and was actually RDMed by the RDMer), and player B doesn't believe Player A and kills Player A, Player B is getting slain for RDM. It doesn't matter if Player A is a traitor or not. No one is enabling traitors to immunize themselves. No one is stopping someone from mowing down a person they don't believe. If anything, everyone is receiving the same amount of immunization. If Player B didn't see Player A kill the RDMer, and can't verify that Player A was being RDMed, they have to either believe Player A or put suspicion on Player A. This is no different than having the same weapon that was used to kill someone. You have circumstantial evidence that has yet to be proven. So you either take the situation at face value and believe what Player A has said, be skeptical and put suspicion on Player A, or shoot Player A and RDM them. Those are the only options. And if you RDM Player A, the logs should be able to very clearly tell if Player A was RDMed or not.

This is just a strawman. You can only treat everyone so fairly when only one perspective is represented in staff, and you can only have so much perspective in women's and LGBT issues if you aren't a woman or LGBT. Regardless, you are entirely misrepresenting what has been said on the matter.

If we can only treat everyone so fairly when only one perspective is represented in staff, then you would agree that we need more diverse staff, which includes black people, Hispanic people, Asian people, etc. Regardless, we don't need to have a representative from every possible permutation of a human being on staff if the goal of the staff is for every player to be treated fairly and respectfully. Does it help to have representatives of these different races and creeds on the admin team? Of course. I am not arguing against that. But I don't believe that I am misrepresenting what has been said on the matter when someone of their own volition said, "[tiefling] is the only ttt admin that truly can [create a safe space for feminine presenting or lgbtq/queer people] since she's the only one with the proper insight and experience to do so." Can white people not create a safe space for minorities because they aren't a minority? I'd disagree with that statement. Look at abolitionists during the Civil War. All I am saying (because I failed to explicitly say this last night) is that it shouldn't matter what gender you are, what race you are, whatever. All that should matter is that the staff members of the server are doing their best to make everyone feel safe, welcomed, and entertained. The mark of a good admin shouldn't be who the admin is speaking for. The mark of a good admin should be if they are administrating fairly, justly, and equally.


See what happens when threads are allowed to stay open? Discussions can be had. Thanks, web staff.

i think you should be very careful with using the civil war to say that emancipation was done for moral reasons, it was done purely for political reasons

also what followed emancipation was Jim Crow

again, this reflects back on my comments that while you can be well educated on general topics regarding oppression, your knowledge will always be limited compared to those who exist in those spaces and have lived through those experiences (and the consequences of the past)

[Avi]

Essentially the staff were unsure how a rule worked on server, Foxka (not staff at the time) was explaining the rule (which he was correct per the MOTD), and the staff went to Tiefling for guidance outside of the server.  Tiefling incorrectly informed them of the rule and the situation was mishandled on server.

Multiple staff were complaining to me that foxka was arguing with their ruling for 15-20 minutes. I told them what I've always said on this topic: I don't believe players should be expected to have telepathic abilities or have to believe everything someone says; part of social deduction games is the chance that you won't be believed. If you can negate DNA by just saying you were RDMed without the other person having seen it or any other way to confirm that, then there's nothing stopping traitors from just saying they were RDMed after every kill and validly reporting anyone who kills them off of DNA, making the entire mechanic a pointless RDM trap (not saying that's what foxka did, but that is what it would entail).

My main issue isn't this however, rather my experience playing with Tiefling on the server.  I was gone from the community for a couple of years, so I really know nothing of Tiefling before coming back earlier this year.  One of my first interactions with Tiefling felt off.  It probably won't mean a lot to most, but it came off as uncomfortable to me when it happened.
I was just playing TTT as it was, as a traitor, and killed Tiefling as an innocent.  I immediately received this pm on server:

At this point I knew nothing about Tiefling, had only played on server a couple of times with her, and it came off more mad that I shot her than anything.  I wouldn't think too much about it, but I've come to find out that others have felt the same way with comments like that on server (that's on them to share, I'm only going to share my experiences here).

There were other things I noticed, but I've discussed those with other admins, and if they think it's necessary, they can have a conversation about it.

This was indeed a joke. You were the only other female TTT admin I knew about at the time (sorry hani) and I just thought it was a funny way to essentially say "hey look, we got another one on the board" in the moment. I took your silence as a sign that you weren't receptive to that kind of thing and refrained from joking like that afterwards. I apologize for conveying a different meaning than intended.

With Foxka's situation, multiple people were able to confirm the person was rdming during the round, so it shouldn't have caused issue of if he was being honest or deceptive in the round.  He should have been able to continue on during the round without being killed over DNA.  I do agree though with your overall reasoning, people shouldn't be able to just claim RDM on every single kill they do (I vaguely remember someone trying this before while also false kosing people constantly, which they were told to stop doing).  Also, if someone claims it's RDM in a report because they said the person was rdming, but that person wasn't rdming, then I don't think it's fair to punish anyone with a slay.  I think the rule's interpretation could be reworked to prevent things like falsely claiming over and over that you're being "rdmed."  

As for the joke thing, I appreciate you sharing your perspective on it and I can understand your point of view on it better now.  Like I said at the time and up until now, it felt off to me, but I can see what your intentions were, so I have no bad thoughts or hard feelings on that.

[EpicGuy]

i think you should be very careful with using the civil war to say that emancipation was done for moral reasons, it was done purely for political reasons

also what followed emancipation was Jim Crow

again, this reflects back on my comments that while you can be well educated on general topics regarding oppression, your knowledge will always be limited compared to those who exist in those spaces and have lived through those experiences (and the consequences of the past)

My original thought in my post wasn't emancipation. It was more the help that black Americans received from white Americans in the Underground Railroad during the time of abolition. I was also thinking about good ol' American hero (and abolitionist) John Brown who helped (or at least attempted to help) the slaves at Harper's Ferry. And I don't think that emancipation was done solely for moral reasons. Of course there were other factors like politics (Lincoln was running for reelection the year after the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect, and I'm sure there were other factors at play). There were also a few fun years of Reconstruction before James came to town.

I don't even know how we got here. Anyway, my point is that people of all creeds, backgrounds, beliefs, whatever can come together and create safe spaces. We don't need safe spaces that consist of people of only one group. That's not a safe space, that's an isolation chamber. People who aren't in the minority can still help those who are in the minority with the resources they have. That was my point. Will they know the entire story or situation? No. Can they still empathize and help? Yes.

American history aside (I love American history), I do understand that my knowledge will be limited compared to those who lived through horrific experiences. If I ever need a reminder of a small portion of history, or want to know what things were like before I began to exist on God's green Earth, I think I'll pick up the phone and call one of my many black relatives and get their story :)