[Rinzler]

So Today while playing canyon a detective (Inspo) bought a grapple, not knowing how to use it well, and fell to his death in the pit while someone else and I watched, so i surfed down, got the grapple, and said twice in chat the detective fell and died and i picked up his grapple. Then Bacardi went forward to kos me, after saying i had it and doing nothing but swinging in the open. Isnt that not kosable since its not just a T weapon. I wasnt even doing anything and he said it wasnt a false kos and it wasnt slayable, and continued to not slay himself since he was only mod on. 

Would like some clarification, thanks!

[BacArdi M.]

No, it is KOSable and it is not RDM. I confirmed with both @Foxka and Helen prior to closing your report to be 100% certain and avoid any chance of a misunderstanding, and told you I did such ingame. You were not proven and had a D/T item and the only person who could say where it came from (Inspo) was dead. Therefore, obvious KOS.

[DC.Zephyr]

Having a detective item is NOT kosable Bacardi; show me the rule that says it is.
The most you could have done is put suspicion on him for the unlikely death of the detective.

[ReThink]

I think @"Zephyr" is right in this situation. Upon review, nowhere does it say having a detective wep is KOS. It only says t-wep, and since the grapple is not exclusive, it isn’t a T-wep. Therefore the most that could have been done is a sus for having the equipment of a dead detective while unproven.

@Foxka and Helen were wrong; there isn’t anything in the rules that calls for this specific KOS.
Plus, he even called it out, it’s not like he secretly had it and didn’t tell anyone.

Feel free @Foxka to point out to us where it was allowed.

EDIT: I’d also like to point out that KOS exists for traitorous acts; having a called-out grappling hook isn’t inherently traitorous, unless he was grappling people.

A good rule of thumb for KOS is “can I definitively find a reason that that person is a T without doubt?”. If you read the list of KOSable acts, they all follow this trend. This situation does not.

[Foxka]

I think @"Zephyr" is right in this situation. Upon review, nowhere does it say having a detective wep is KOS. It only says t-wep, and since the grapple is not exclusive, it isn’t a T-wep. Therefore the most that could have been done is a sus for having the equipment of a dead detective while unproven.

@Foxka and Helen were wrong; there isn’t anything in the rules that calls for this specific KOS.
Plus, he even called it out, it’s not like he secretly had it and didn’t tell anyone.

Feel free @Foxka to point out to us where it was allowed.

EDIT: I’d also like to point out that KOS exists for traitorous acts; having a called-out grappling hook isn’t inherently traitorous, unless he was grappling people.

A good rule of thumb for KOS is “can I definitively find a reason that that person is a T without doubt?”. If you read the list of KOSable acts, they all follow this trend. This situation does not.

Once again you are talking about something you know nothing about to cause trouble for us.

[BacArdi M.]

Thanks Foxka. Zephyr, having a detective item may not be immediately KOSable, but the grapple is not just a D weapon, it is also a T weapon. ReThink, I'm not sure where you're deriving it's not a T weapon from, but it's in the T shop; just because a detective can also buy it does not invalidate its status as a T weapon.

I get you guys are just trying to understand the rules and follow them, and I respect and admire that. That said, have a little faith in us.

Edit: I wrote this solely concerning the screenshot of the rules. I think we should all just do a shot and get along.

[ReThink]

I think @"Zephyr" is right in this situation. Upon review, nowhere does it say having a detective wep is KOS. It only says t-wep, and since the grapple is not exclusive, it isn’t a T-wep. Therefore the most that could have been done is a sus for having the equipment of a dead detective while unproven.

@Foxka and Helen were wrong; there isn’t anything in the rules that calls for this specific KOS.
Plus, he even called it out, it’s not like he secretly had it and didn’t tell anyone.

Feel free @Foxka to point out to us where it was allowed.

EDIT: I’d also like to point out that KOS exists for traitorous acts; having a called-out grappling hook isn’t inherently traitorous, unless he was grappling people.

A good rule of thumb for KOS is “can I definitively find a reason that that person is a T without doubt?”. If you read the list of KOSable acts, they all follow this trend. This situation does not.

Once again you are talking about something you know nothing about to cause trouble for us.

Strange, I didn't know items obtained from a detective were traitor weapons. I'll keep that in mind. Maybe you should think before you speak.

EDIT: In case you still don't get it, despite it being rather clearly stated in previous posts by both myself and others, the debate is how the grapple can be considered a T weapon if the detective also has access to it. It's a point noting that an item cannot be a T item if it isn't exclusive, and the rule thus cannot apply.

It's like calling purple red because it has red mixed into it, which doesn't make sense. By definition, and by extension, the rules, you are wrong @Foxka.

At best, it's a case-specific clarification that needs to be made. At worst, you're wrong. Either way, he shouldn't have been killed for it, because it wasn't' explicitly allowed.

EDIT 2:
@Foxka Also fuck yourself for accusing me of attempting to cause trouble. I was, up until you joining, having a civil debate on the interpretation of the rules. You were the first one here to use ad hominem  in this thread. That's not very mod-like.

[The Dutch Problem]

Right, so I'm just jumping in because of unnessesary accusations. From Both sides.

While it is up to debate wether a Grapple is or isnt a reason to kill a man, the staff consider the item in the hands of an unproven innocent a T weapon due to the easy fabrication of the story that the detective died with it. Even witnisses can be fabricated in the form of supporting T buds. In this grey area the staff handle its use as a T weapon.

[Foxka]

It's still a T item. T's can buy it. I am here to clarify the ruling on the KOS, which is the purpose of the thread. It's not a debate thread. You accusing both myself and Helen of being wrong is an attack on our ability to interpret and enforce the rules. You need to stop.

[BacArdi M.]

Let's just settle down everyone. It's objective and final that if an item is in the T shop, it's a T item. There are way too many lies that can be made up for how a T got one, and if he's not proven, he's holding an item that is just as likely a T weapon as it is a D item. In fact, just based on how people get grappling hooks and a loose form of statistics I'm pulling out of thin air, he's more likely to be a T if he has a grapple while not D than he is to be inno. He was unproven, he had a traitor item, and the living detective wasn't fully buying it. That's how the rule is written. That's it. Done. I've been pulled to my death by traitors using grapples more times than I can count, so if an unproven innocent has a grapple, I'm not taking any chances. That's why the rule is written as such so people can't lie their way out when they get caught using one. I'd appreciate it if people could have a little faith in us and stop accusing us of malpractice at every turn.