[TheUltraFish]

I am overall for most of the changes that matt brought up.

I am still against forum reputation returning. Yes, they made some things nice or easy to see on things like staff applications however the double-edged sword is not worth it. Someone popular making a staff application while someone not as popular making valid points voting against them? Rip rep and get bullied for saying valid things. Someone makes a valid point but someone fishing for internet points say something stupid? Guess who gets the support. The reputation system can be nice but that was not what it was used for half of the time.

Around the time reputation was taken away, multiple things had happened in the community. 2021 was a bad year for the forums as several people were removed from the community, people were making alts to continue voting for people and manipulating reputation, others were just +/- 1ing people based on who they are and not what they said. It got to the point of getting so ridiculous where time had to be put aside constantly to get rid of reputation manipulation as well as find and get rid of alts. Some say the forums have gone stale since then, I am going to say more that less dramatic things have happened. This is especially taking into consideration on what has happened within the past year and a half where other things do not measure up to what has happened.

There are still entertaining threads, a more diverse group of people are using the forums, and the forums are being used EXACTLY what they are used for. Back when the forums for the community was first introduced, discord was either new or nonexistent. Other than the servers, the forums was the one place where a majority of the community could come together and speak. Discord has made it where such things are not as necessary and more server based things can remain on the forums as well as things that cannot be discussed or shown well in discord. The base of the community has shifted to the discord for communication as it is the easiest to use. Discord allows for groups to speak one another and generally hang out with one another. The entertaining threads, such as Black Rose's thread about Black History Month, would have been much more difficult to have in this community on the forums a couple of years ago. The forums have calmed down, as they generally do during the holiday seasons, and I am okay with that.

Should you be able to agree/disagree with someone? Yes, however if you cannot explain why you agree with someone, partially agree/disagree with them, or fully agree with them, how is a reputation system going to help that? Depending on the person that says something, they are going to get likes or dislikes to their account not for what they said, but for who they are. All you would have to do to see this would be to look at past threads, if reputation is ever readded, and see what others have said. With constant issues like that, how are community members and staff supposed to take anyone's comments seriously if it half of the things voted +1 or -1 are just purely based on a popularity contest? I like how the forums are now where everyone either has to explain why they agree or disagree with something. Some may argue that they are too lazy to type something up, I would respond with, if you are so lazy that you are unwilling to respond to something, especially in the age where snapchat, discord, and texting run rampant, is what you had to see truly matter if you are unwilling to say how you truly feel other than "+1 is good" or "-1 Fish man bad" essentially?

[HONG]

rep is the only thing that people care about, there’s nothing else significant that can/should be done

forums could otherwise be entirely self sufficient with no more changes needed and each section being moderated by its respective admins, its never been that deep in the time ive been here, and isn’t really interesting anymore (which is the double edged sword of having drama gone, but also most other forms of activity)

also: if rep does come back, there should be a definition of what rep manipulation is so moderation isn’t so arbitrary—the difference between some guy downvoting every post made by someone because he’s mad vs. everyone downvoting a post someone made because it was dumb

[happy]

That black history thread was not entertaining it had maybe 1 person aside from the op comment on it.

In short community aspect of forums dying isn't good. Everyone has been down voted at some point or another and the idea of if u can't explain why u +/- is stupid especially when it comes to +1 very clear suggestions or statements

[bunniey]

Okay, essay time maybe unless I get bored of typing before I finish.

1. What should the forums be for?
The obvious answer from a staffing standpoint is essentially anything directly server-related, and leave anything community-oriented to the discord, but I will always entirely disagree with this notion. Discord is good for more in the moment conversations. If you miss a conversation in the discord, you probably won't even know it happened. That's how it's designed to be, fluid ongoing conversations, with certain specific places being infinitely static. The forums are a great place to have an ongoing conversation about a very specific topic. Relegating the forums to be specifically for specific server issues means you're not utilizing a large part of its allure anymore. That's why people come here to complain about stuff, or make posts about people being retards, because here it will stay at the forefront, anyone can look up a thread and see all the relevant comments about it in one place instead of having to sift through them. So saying that all of the communal use of the forums can go to the discord is just wrong.

2. The true issues with rep manipulation
Rep is a punishment/reward thing. It's true. When you see a bunch of people agree with you, you get an endorphin release. When you see a bunch of people disagree, you feel crummy. But people are making it sound like the worst thing in the world is to be -1'd a bunch. I'd take 10 -1s on a post over someone basically shitting on me here and in the staff discord any day (specific example in mind, won't comment further). Words carry far more weight than that -1, so pretending that being -1'd a bunch is akin to ostracizing and bullying is just foolish at best, because lord knows anyone has been far more wounded by the words of other people here, even staff members, than some -1s, which were probably warranted as more often than not it's over saying something pretty dumb. No one gets mass +1d or -1d just because of who they are, either, that's silly. Everyone who has a lot of rep has said things that netted them a good chunk of -1s. But this idea that it should be some super happy safe area where discourse is treated as fundamentally wrong just feels...fundamentally wrong. Why try to fix something that isn't broken? It's been the same way for ages and the community has still gotten less toxic, from my understanding, than it used to be. There's such a thing as making things /too/ nice. Conflict is part of what holds any community together, and trying to completely minimize it any time it crops up instead of looking inward and figuring out the core issues is silly. No core issues have ever had to do with rep. People don't make posts because they want rep, that's just a meme, and always has been. It's quieter without it because on several facets it feels like the community is being told to act in a more and more specific way, to make staffing easier. I don't know how to end this part, please clap.

3. Actual fixes that involve reimplementing but fixing some of the issues
-1s need to stay. Honestly, having -1s and not +1s sounds better than the alternative. Having a comment with any agreement/disagreement shouldn't be required, and absolutely shouldn't be seen as lazy, Fish. It's a quick way to agree or disagree with something on a good portion of posts, and gives a good gauge on how people feel about things. How the community feels about anyone/anything is honestly more often than not a pretty good indicator as to the right path to take with an issue, anyway. When every single person has nothing good to say about someone, for instance, that someone probably shouldn't be around. But trying to make it a requirement to have something to say when sometimes other people just put something as good as you can is silly. Real fix is a clearly defined rep manipulation (which honestly should only be seen as going out of your way to +/-1 things that are entirely irrelevant to any conversation going on, like old posts), not just a lot of people treating one comment the same. What seems to kickstart stuff most often is when staff are "targeted" with -1s, which is kind of hilarious. It has always been a thing that the playerbase is just more likely to disagree with staff, don't be so hurt ab the internet points. They don't need to always be treated as a personal affront. It sometimes is just merely a disagreement, not because someone hates you.

And honestly, most things on the forums, aside from alts, should be pretty much in autopilot, anyway. If someone is being -1d a lot, why bother doing anything with it? That doesn't mean it's not warranted if it's happening, I think there has just been a heavy misconception that the rep is what caused drama, when really, any drama is caused by how serious/unserious issues are being taken.

tldr just reimplement it and stop worrying about it so much it literally wont hurt anyone ((if the internet points somehow come to live and start stabbing people or stealing socks, i will advocate for it being removed)

[RussEfarmer]

1. What should the forums be for?
The obvious answer from a staffing standpoint is essentially anything directly server-related, and leave anything community-oriented to the discord, but I will always entirely disagree with this notion. Discord is good for more in the moment conversations. If you miss a conversation in the discord, you probably won't even know it happened. That's how it's designed to be, fluid ongoing conversations, with certain specific places being infinitely static. The forums are a great place to have an ongoing conversation about a very specific topic. Relegating the forums to be specifically for specific server issues means you're not utilizing a large part of its allure anymore. That's why people come here to complain about stuff, or make posts about people being retards, because here it will stay at the forefront,  anyone can look up a thread and see all the relevant comments about it in one place instead of having to sift through them. So saying that all of the communal use of the forums can go to the discord is just wrong.

I wanted to point this out when fish said something similar but I didn't really know how to word it... the discord is actually older than this whole website. Why do we all the sudden just want to shove it in the back and let it be the site where we dump ban reports? Nothing has warranted that other than a sudden moderation issue on the forums (cough, fix the report button)

[voidzz]

I see where fish is coming from, but I also think rand does an amazing part in describing the simplicity of the situation. Like HONG said, just define rep manipulation. It's silly for everything to be in discord, nobody likes to read through 500+ messages since they were last active, and the stuff that's actually meant to be talked about in the discords usually isn't, it's ever-changing convos that contain something important 1/700 of the time. Forums are where we like to see the drama, as it's up front. If someone loses sleep over -1 +1, they probably shouldn't be online. Fish does mention the popularity thing though, but as long as someone comments with confidence and ignores what the mass is voting or if they're voting against them, it shouldn't really matter. Admins alike should be following along with every comment on a staff app, and even recognize the ones bombed with -1, then check the merit that comes with it.

tldr bring rep back and if you get offended by -1 get off the internet

[Jammin]

Show Content

Spoiler1. What should the forums be for?
The obvious answer from a staffing standpoint is essentially anything directly server-related, and leave anything community-oriented to the discord, but I will always entirely disagree with this notion. Discord is good for more in the moment conversations. If you miss a conversation in the discord, you probably won't even know it happened. That's how it's designed to be, fluid ongoing conversations, with certain specific places being infinitely static. The forums are a great place to have an ongoing conversation about a very specific topic. Relegating the forums to be specifically for specific server issues means you're not utilizing a large part of its allure anymore. That's why people come here to complain about stuff, or make posts about people being retards, because here it will stay at the forefront,  anyone can look up a thread and see all the relevant comments about it in one place instead of having to sift through them. So saying that all of the communal use of the forums can go to the discord is just wrong.

I wanted to point this out when fish said something similar but I didn't really know how to word it... the discord is actually older than this whole website. Why do we all the sudden just want to shove it in the back and let it be the site where we dump ban reports? Nothing has warranted that other than a sudden moderation issue on the forums (cough, fix the report button)

As someone with a theoretically elevated influence in the operation of the discord, I appreciate the more organized approach of having bans/unbans on the forums. Sure, the discord could be facilitated for such uses as a ban request repository, and I'm prepared for that should the forums ever go kaput, but then we gotta ensure things remain organized. The forums give us built in organization using format tools that frankly make sense. Both serve their purpose well.

I do echo rand's point that old rep is probably best. I have come to learn that many opinions, especially in this community, are sometimes flat out stupid. That being said the abuse is an issue due to the recovery time. I have offered my services to assist in cleaning up rep whenever someone goes rogue, as I know that was one of the main issues factoring into the removal (the recent issue with leviilei resulted in hours of work by Matt to reverse a - rep attack).

My suggestion is this:

1. Implement old rep system back with comments/etc
   
2. Implement a rule against individuals -rep ing more than 3 posts per thread
   
3. Implement a rule against individuals +/-rep ing posts without a concrete opinion, such as just posting a steam ID, etc.
   
4. Implement a rule against +/-rep on ban requests
   
5. Implement a rule against -rep of posts older than 2 days
   
6. Implement a rule against collusion to +/-rep other posts (aka solicitation of rep or colluding to manipulate own or someone's rep
   
7. Consider implement an opt in to the rep system, meaning individuals can choose to enable their own rep system
   
8. Consider implementing a cap on -rep on various posts
   
9. Disable all rep in the shitposting subforum to prevent abuse
   
10. Implement a stricter punishment that immediately bans anyone violating the system. If they don't want a ban, they can choose to not use it.
    

Lets just get rid of those who abuse it. Having the ability to +/-1 someone's opinion shouldn't be taken away imo. The ability to weaponize rep to troll should

My solution is coarse but a starting point would be to get +rep back.

[bunniey]

blah blah blah blah blah

I think you're slightly misguided on our point. Bans and other server issues should absolutely be a forum thing, but there shouldn't be a presumption that forums should only be for those issues, as has been alluded to by various people, the discord is fine as is, and things generally belonging on the forums don't really have a place there, we're all on the same page about that.

I don't think rule 4 should be a thing, 5 should be closer to a week after the last post on a thread, 8 should be a thing to think about implementing if a thread truly becomes derailed, 10 it shouldn't be an immediate thing, just like any punishment. Otherwise all of those are pretty fine. Oh, and +reping anything should be seen as fine tbh, actually. +ing someone just posting a steam ID is just a habit honestly, and not a negative one, but -ing random stuff like that is different.

[dong]

I’m on the side of wanting the old format back as well. I earned my fake internet points after 4 years of bologna and was a good feeling.

Pros:
People got an engaging experience through the rep on their post.
Seemed to not clog forums as much bc people would just tap a button rather than comment.
Served as “we love this!” Or “you’re being dumb!” Sort of thing whenever it was around.

Cons:
Groups can target individuals by mass +1 or -1.
Was painful to moderate.
People could potentially be “bullied” by that ^.

I think with more people added to forum staff (eventually), it will not be as difficult to moderate and you can just ban whoever causes issues with the rep thing or forums overall. In this age things are leaning more towards discord/whatever other program servers use, so forums usually get more serious things posted.

[3mb3ry]

Man if only I had a button that I could quickly convey which points I agree and disagree with while not clogging up the thread... Bring back reputation, the whole rep manipulation thing can be solved easily and the suggestions have already been stated. And rand's point about the usefulness of having forums for discussion alongside discord is a great.

1. What should the forums be for?
The obvious answer from a staffing standpoint is essentially anything directly server-related, and leave anything community-oriented to the discord, but I will always entirely disagree with this notion. Discord is good for more in the moment conversations. If you miss a conversation in the discord, you probably won't even know it happened. That's how it's designed to be, fluid ongoing conversations, with certain specific places being infinitely static. The forums are a great place to have an ongoing conversation about a very specific topic. Relegating the forums to be specifically for specific server issues means you're not utilizing a large part of its allure anymore. That's why people come here to complain about stuff, or make posts about people being retards, because here it will stay at the forefront, anyone can look up a thread and see all the relevant comments about it in one place instead of having to sift through them. So saying that all of the communal use of the forums can go to the discord is just wrong.

I am one of probably a handful of people who will take the time to go through the channels I care about and read the hundreds of messages that happen while I am away but the forums ability to keep certain topics on topic and in one place is such an underrated feature that people don't utilize anymore. There were many good points brought up and I hope that y'all actually take what the community wants into consideration.