[Gabe]

-snip-

Why is Laced afforded the luxury by an admin "hoping to build" that trust over time for him when we keep regular people banned for the same thing? Why isn't someone like Timbo afforded the luxury of building trust again? He has 10 bans, Laced has 28. (This is just used as an example, no need to comment on Timbo specifically).

I have no part in TTT decisions or regular people getting banned for the same thing in most cases. I don't see it as a luxury. As I said, I think he deserved an opportunity to prove that he's changed and web mod was a first step. I fully expected some people to have a lack of trust based on his past. As I said, I think that's a preconcieved view that some people won't break easily. Some people can be stuck in the past, echo chambers, etc. I think he's so far shown signs of improvement, dedication to the community, motivation, and taking the role seriously. He's also returned as TTT staff initially, so it's not like I was promoting a non-staff member. He's my responsibility and I think that over time, trust can be built. Otherwise some people won't come out of the bubble that is filled with preconcieved view, opinions, echo chambers, half-baked context, etc. I fully recognize his past. I never said I didn't. We have to move forward and I think this is a good first step.

As I said before, the perks/perms of "Web Mod" have changed significantly, I don't think people recognize that enough. It's not mod in the traditional sense. It' a hybrid of Mod and TMod(which he already has on TTT). I think we need to not jump to concluions right away and allow some time to genuinly evaluate how it goes.

I'll comment on Timbo, sure. In my view, Timbo showed little reason that he should be trusted again. His app lacked effort, acknowledgement of his issues, etc. For Laced, he has acknowledged his issues and has been genuine in bettering himself.

I wasn't sure before, but this is obviously a "hey you're my friend, so here's moderator" type of decision. I've seen so many people in this thread defending Laced, who I've seen comment things like "You've already been given three chances. Don't come back -1" on unban requests. What makes Laced better than us plebes where he is given special treatment by an admin, in order to build trust again?

Respectfully, I don't get how this is favortism or some sort of "favor." Sure, we are good friends. I've known him since ~late 2018. So on the surface level I get why it appears that way but I frankly think some much needed context is here. For one, I can tell you have not read my initial forum changes post here. As I said, "Web Mod" is not moderator in the traditional sense. It's the only web staff rank. I don't feel like retyping what I've already said multiple times, so here:

As I've also said, I'm in a unique position be able to be able to determine how he's changed given my involvement with his past bans, promotion/demotion, and watching how's he's changed and grown. So i think painting this as favortism is not productive nor reasonable to infer, respectfully. I've said more above, but I can elaborate if you wish

[jax]

-snip-

-snip-

I don't agree, but we've both said our pieces and I think both our comments might help open up a little bit of perspective for both sides so I'll leave it at that. Thanks for reply and answering

[tiefling lesbian]

dear god i'm just snipping this whole thing

Still not commenting directly on Laced being moderator, but people have posted recent examples of reasonable concerns, it's not just past issues that people are talking about.

Also, the powers currently given to forum moderators are still very relevant to the concerns raised against him.

[Misstie6731]

That was a good shit post and i am sad it was deleted so quickly


But in all seriousness, if they did this amongst admin because they knew there would be issue with laced being mod, is that not a sign that maybe they should not be staff?

---

dear god i'm just snipping this whole thing

Still not commenting directly on Laced being moderator, but people have posted recent examples of reasonable concerns, it's not just past issues that people are talking about.

Also, the powers currently given to forum moderators are still very relevant to the concerns raised against him.

I will not say this ever again in regard to tiefling, but this is hella based

[Avi]

-snip-

[quote pid="140288" dateline="1672876037"]
-snip-
I messed up the snip but my responses are in black.

I wouldn't characterize it as it being "shutdown" moreso the thread being open past it's usefulness. There was meaningful feedback for the rule rewording, which was a work in progress when it was initally posted. I kept it open for those reasons. Once we finished the changes, I always intended to close it out and any further feedback, suggestions, etc could be made in seperate threads. After Battons' snarky comment was rightfully removed, it just made sense to close it out then. 

What determines the usefulness of a thread? Then why not close all threads after a certain period of time? Your response and what typically happens contradicts one another.


As I said, it was taken into consideration and discussed. I also went back and did some research of my own in case I was forgetting anything. Anyone that knows me knows that I don't make rash decisions and that I try to do things as thorougly as possible.

Yes, I said in my initial post that I expected there to be some opposition and a lack of trust initially. That is what I'm hoping to build over time. I think some people(this is a general statement) are stuck in the past and can't rationalize that someone can change and grow over time. some think that people should forever be judged on their past and their past actions. I wanted to give Laced an opportunity after all this time to prove that he's changed and this is frankly a good first step in doing that. I've seen that he's changed. Again, I've seen him at his "worst" in this community versus now. He's genuinely tried to better himself and has done that in my eyes.

Some people are stuck in echo chambers, preconcieved views and opinions, and trying to hold onto issues/drama that have already been resolved, addressed, or fixed. The only way forward is to build trust and try to break out of these past bubbles. 

I already addressed the shitposting aspects. For arguments, I've seen them as still being civil. Intent and context matters. If you have any specific recent examples, I'd be glad to see them. He said "i love u guys but stop being stupid lmfao". Which to me comes across as a lighthearted way of saying to stupid, espesically since he knows some of the people that are shitposting. He's still being objective too there. He gave a tame response, all things considered, to this thread. 

Clearly the issues with trusting certain people in this community are not fixed.  When there's a repeated cycle of gaining and breaking trust, you can't expect people to forget the past. Hence sayings like forgive but never forget.  Those past actions may have been forgiven, but they will never be forgotten, which is why it's critical to have those actions accounted for when doing a closed off promotion like this. There was no reason given as to why people should trust Laced again, and no amount of staffing can change that. Anyone can put on a face and pretend to be something they're not, and act completely different when staff aren't watching. I've seen in myself in game, and that's why I feel as strong as I do about what I say. That's why I've always said, community feedback is and will always be vital when making decisions like this. Now you have more broken trust, not just between the community and Laced, but the community and the admin team responsible for this decision.
You're also missing a keyword in your argument. A person CAN change, doesn't mean they HAVE changed.
In the context of calling people stupid, light hearted or not, that just adds to an already unprofessional feel for the community. Regardless of what the intention behind the comment was and whether you think  it was harmless, a position like that is meant to represent the overall community and should be professional when discussing matters like this with members of the community. This comment comes off as rude and ignoring people's thoughts on the matter, which puts this community and the staff in a bad light.

[/quote]
Since this was missed, I'll ask again:
Since when could someone close out their own ban request without any admin oversight on the thread and archive it (since a Web mod does that but isn't a high enough ttt staff to archive ban requests unless that changed)? Feels like a step was missed in that whole process too.

[Foxka]

I hope that neither side of the major argument that has happened on this thread comes away from this thinking that they have added to the discussion in a way that should affect the decision, because there were very few reasonable comments in this thread.

I do not want or care to try to influence the decision (because I can't anyways lol it's already made). My purpose in responding to this thread in general is to finally air out the crap i've been put through. This promotion just served as a catalyst for me to make it loud. A lot of responses i've been seeing here are just as blindly defending Laced as much as I am, in your eyes, blindly accusing him of harassing me over the many years. I do not want gabe to doubt his own choices here, however I do not appreciate the fact that favoritism and hypocrisy are blatant and intense here. I am uncomfortable, to say the least, with Laced in general and i am uncomfortable with being shrugged off. I don't even want laced demoted or anything i just want him to aknowledge how fucked up he's acted towards me and just say sorry for once instead of shirking it away and mocking it. Otherwise I can't forgive and move on and things will always be shitty between him and us. I don't want that. I want better for both of us and to actually get along for a change.
yada yada word salad im r worded

[Butter Paladin]

After seeing the results of this decision, I think that creating an open line of communication for community members to privately share their criticisms, concerns, and compliments, may have been a good way to give the opportunity for people to voice their opinions. I do not believe that this thread as a whole was any more effective than Battons’s deleted response at communicating opinions in a constructive way. 

Preface: I have missed years of drama with this server and have only been back for a month, so anything I say needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I ultimately believe in a place to discuss the mentioned items above that stops these types of issues from being discussed behind closed doors (even though it will still happen) but at the same time I know exactly what can happen when people voice their concerns without being held to some sort of guideline or standard in the method/medium of making a complaint. Instead, of taking these issues to heart it just generates more hate towards the individual due to people being stuck in the same method of thinking and not wanting to grow as an individual them leading to lashing towards an individual. In-person this would just be physical/verbal altercations, but online this can only go to verbal/illicit cyber activities as a form of retaliation.

Any place that does allow these types of discussions will have to abide by transparent moderating (With the average Joe relying on anyone that has access to moderate the forum or see the backend) to allow actual discussions about problems/concerns/or just thanking individuals for stepping up for issues they have seen. Without the discussion devolving into essentially mudslinging which would just create more issues within the community. 


Apologies for the wall of text.

[reinaberg]

-snip-

Maybe the next time something like this happens, and if we have more web staff, they can do a lot of the moderating of posts prior to them being made.

I think the biggest concern with this would be the risk of people still feeling as though their responses have been intentionally censored in an effort for staff to control the narrative of the discussion, since there are often posts that barely toe the line between direct attacks and harsh criticism or empty praise and positive feedback.

[Battons]

I hope that neither side of the major argument that has happened on this thread comes away from this thinking that they have added to the discussion in a way that should affect the decision, because there were very few reasonable comments in this thread.

So what I'm getting from this as that none of these opinions matter and that the thread is useless, gotcha. Again may I ask, is this place not for discussions? Doesn't matter if YOU think its useless because for others it is useful.

[reinaberg]

-snip-

You weren’t one of the people I was referring to with that comment, foxka.