[Gabe]

I want to address the point made in the initial post that the forums are supposed to be a place for discussion. I agree, the forums are intended to be used to discuss things in ways that benefit the community. The biggest thing that prevents that from happening is the amount of miscommunication often found in threads similar to this one. I understand that it’s easier to just skim a response before you reply to it, but that almost always leads to people missing important points that already addressed their concerns. Frankly, I don’t believe there has been any effort put forth by several people in this thread to understand the other party’s point before voicing any disagreement.

In this thread, we have seen people cherry-picking parts of what people say and basing their response on that little sliver rather than the whole message. That's just disingenuous to do and does not lead to anything productive. It only serves to misrepresent the other person’s beliefs while fueling your own argument. The fact that some have to cherry-pick points just to find something to argue with shows that this is not a discussion intended to lead to any kind of understanding or agreement; it is purely meant to be used as a way for many of you to rant about someone you dislike. This behavior has only led to aggression, escalation, false accusations, and misrepresentation of other people’s opinions.

Instead of handling this situation in such a clumsy fashion, we should be listening to and respecting other’s viewpoints. You're more than welcome to disagree, but you are not doing so productively unless you are making an effort to read what other people have said.

It is not even remotely convincing when you claim to be supporting discussions on the forums while you yourself are unwilling to put in the effort to hold a meaningful discussion, Battons. The only thing you have proven through responses like the one you made towards Reina is that you are willing to blatantly misconstrue people’s words and actions. This is a prime example of attempting to make anyone who doesn’t bother to read the original response in its entirety believe that the person you’re responding to has said or done something deserving of such a reaction. You have thus far failed to do anything that fits the definition of a meaningful discussion.

[reinaberg]

Maybe we should just, idk, have a 'Should Laced be Promoted to Web Mod' thread. It's not actually too late to do that, y'know?

I don’t think it’s reasonable to create an official thread to decide whether or not Laced should be demoted after he has already gotten the position when he has done nothing that warrants a demotion. It isn’t Laced’s fault that he is the only web mod to have been on receiving end of such vocal discontent over a decision he didn’t make. Even the person who created this thread didn’t receive backlash after receiving his position on the web staff team through the same process. Laced shouldn’t be punished for something that has never been this much of an issue before. 

It’s reasonable to say this process should be changed in future decisions, but the this thread has gone above and beyond that level of reason.

[Ruby]

Just gonna slip in my two cents. I feel like all of this drama & pointless arguing could've very easily been prevented if the decision to promote Laced was a public decision with the community getting a say in it. Even just a simple post that includes a yes/no poll to see what the community thinks.

Making such a big decision to promote someone that has such a controversial past in the community to a rank that allows them to silence people (amongst other things) without consulting the community (community being the only thing that  has granted Dinks the ability to operate for such a long time) is quite irresponsible & a sure-fire way to alienate the people who do not agree with the decision specially when a topic like this kicks off (aka a shit show free for all).  Having read through the 9 pages of replies, there is clearly A LOT of people who are very strongly against this decision & are upset that such a big decision was made in private. For me, this topic (+ the very vague rule updates, but that's a whole nother discussion) has left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, having to witness the otherwise very positive & lovely community get split in two. I wish this would've been handled in a more professional way.

Personally i have absolutely no negative experiences with Laced & as many people have said before me, people change & better themselves. To me, personally, it seems that Laced has done exactly that.  I hope Laced doesn't feel too bad about all the stuff people have said about him here & fully utilizes this chance to prove all the doubters wrong.

[Avi]

Recent decisions within this community including this most recent promotion have made a lot of the community insufferable to play on the server, chat in the discord, and now log onto the forums. I stopped talking in discord for the same reason I stopped playing on ttt and for the same reason I will now leave forums too, and this thread drives those reasons further.
Its the same group of people with the same mentality with the same rash behaviour. You can't give an opinion anymore without people jumping all over it from any side, even if you present proof.
The community was on an up for awhile and things were going well, but it's amazing how certain people returned and we're suddenly back to this kind of toxic environment.
So goodbye Dinks, I left the server to take a break thinking that would help, left the Discord awhile later, uninstalled Gmod, and this will be me signing out of the forums too. Some of the people I met more recently have been wonderful, but it's too much to handle seeing older community members foster this type of environment.

[voidzz]

Gabe, your responses alone seem very closeminded. The community has voiced their disapproval, its not too late to do something. However, it’s hard to break the mindset of a circlejerk when they have rose to top of power in many different areas. Notice the areas of who is agreeing with who, and think about how these people relate outside the server. Avi is right, there will be no change and the server will return to its toxic ways, especially given the individuals who have now risen to power. Why do you guys think Ryan hasn’t had backlash? It’s pretty self-explanatory.

[dong]

ya'll about to make me come back fr this getting ridiculous

[Gabe]

Gabe, your responses alone seem very closeminded. The community has voiced their disapproval, its not too late to do something. However, it’s hard to break the mindset of a circlejerk when they have rose to top of power in many different areas. Notice the areas of who is agreeing with who, and think about how these people relate outside the server. Avi is right, there will be no change and the server will return to its toxic ways, especially given the individuals who have now risen to power. Why do you guys think Ryan hasn’t had backlash? It’s pretty self-explanatory.

If you have *read* what I said, I have made it abundantly clear that I am trying to be as transparent, open-minded, and willing to elaborate if someone asks for elaboration. That has not happened. My responses are not closed-minded, I'm making an effort to explain the best I can while also addressing concerns brought up. I respectfully disagree and think that is misconstruing. You can't just say something is closed-minded and not elaborate, that doesn't lead to anything productive. I can say this post is closed-minded as well because it does not elaborate on your points or comes across as if you actually fully *read* my responses, especially if there's no reference to any of them. I say this all respectfully too.

"it's not too late to do something" what does that mean? We can have a meaningful *discussion* of what that means rather than making a vague point and not elaborating. Again, this goes back to having productive and meaningful *discussions*. Not finger-pointing. We need to learn how to have a *discussion* meaningful *discussions* are how you make effective change and progress, not finger-pointing or vague references without elaboration. I welcome any feedback or suggestions, as I have said in this thread and my initial forum updates thread.

This is a helpful resource on what a meaningful discussion entails. Not directed towards you specifically, just in general. Specifically: "Seek first to understand, not to be understood. Ask questions to seek clarification when you don't understand the meaning of someone's comments." You can ask to clarify any of my responses or which ones you specifically think come across as closed-minded, for example. Or I could ask you to clarify what you mean by closed-minded. Or, we could "Prevent conflict and misunderstanding" by clarifying what you mean by the server will return to its toxic ways due to these individuals. We can also have a discussion of what "individuals who have now risen to power" and "the server will return to its toxic ways" means, how this hypothetical could happen, how we can prevent it, and what we can do to make the community the most positive environment it can be. These things come through *discussions* not vague statements. This is how a meaningful *discussion* should work.


If you have *read* what I said, I have acknowledged these concerns and disapproval. The key word is reading my responses and not cherry-picking certain aspects that come across as "closed-minded." As I said, The point of a *discussion* is not to win, it's to understand other viewpoints, discuss them, and try to come to a reasonable understanding even if you disagree in the end. Saying responses "seem" closeminded without actually having a meaningful *discussion* or *reading* what I have said and point to things that come across that way, is not productive or meaningful. I'd gladly discuss why you think it comes across closed-minded. I can assure you I am always an open-minded and thoughtful person. This all comes back to what a discussion and reading responses in its entirely, again. So I encourage you to do that then we can *discuss* these points you have brought up in a productive and meaningful way that can actually accomplish something. Nothing gets done this way.  

key words: read, discussion

[Battons]

Gabe, your responses alone seem very closeminded. The community has voiced their disapproval, its not too late to do something. However, it’s hard to break the mindset of a circlejerk when they have rose to top of power in many different areas. Notice the areas of who is agreeing with who, and think about how these people relate outside the server. Avi is right, there will be no change and the server will return to its toxic ways, especially given the individuals who have now risen to power. Why do you guys think Ryan hasn’t had backlash? It’s pretty self-explanatory.

I’ve spoken to most of the admins about this very thing in private yet have been largely told they’ll consider it, or straight up been told my opinion no longer matters. The dinks that we had have closed there eyes and shut their ears, and while many people joke about this, this specific behavior and mentality of writing off people because “I don’t like them anymore” is the exact thing that led to addressing toxicity 3 years ago.
Matt, fish, nuru, dong, would all be pissed about this decision and when even former admins are being discredited and our criticisms deconstructed there really isn’t anyone who can correct this.

[YourMateMurph]

Laced got picked for his web mod role like it had been chosen in the past, to my knowledge this is exactly how Gabe was given his role as well as Travis. If something needs to change about that choosing process then it should be done, however I don't think Laced should have his role taken away until he misuses it.

The initial reason this post was made was because Battons was mad his post got removed by Laced, which I feel Laced was fine to remove after getting Gabe's ok, and the thread was then locked because it was not really receiving input on the rule changes. I don't think Laced overstepped or used his powers wrong because he got the ok from Gabe to do so.

From my time playing with Laced I see nothing wrong with how he acts, especially more recently.

[reinaberg]

Its the same group of people with the same mentality with the same rash behaviour.

I have to agree with you there. For the past few months there has been a group of people consistently harassing, berating, and targeting those they don’t like, almost to the point of obsession. It has been especially difficult to handle as staff because that group also tries to render staff powerless to intervene by claiming they’re being censored and discriminated against, and by publicly calling out everything they disagree with using an immeasurable amount of vitriol. 

It’s sometimes frustrating to read their accusations, because they show that they’re fully aware that their actions are inexcusable; they just don’t recognize that they’re describing their own behavior. And so, they continue to freely torment other community members without repercussions, while even going as far as to flame the staff having to punish them for breaking the rules.

I truly hope that this problem is resolved before more staff and server members are successfully bullied into abandoning things they used to enjoy. 

It’s unfortunate that this situation has led to you needing to leave the community for your well-being, but I do hope that this decision relieves you of the stress that the drama has caused.