[chapman]

Wow, this thread has devolved a bit.

Can we please keep the bickering/personal grudges off this application? If you have issues, you either need to solve it in DMs or simply shut up if you're never going to see eye-to-eye.

We need to focus solely on TDawg here. There's people being idiots here (and no, I do not simply mean "one" side, it's multiple people) and I don't appreciate it undermining TDawg's application.

[TDawg4]

i have to say, the way the most fervent supporters of this app are engaging in whataboutism and petty bickering is concerning to me. it makes it seem like they came here just because they want a friend to replace a previous admin. i don't want to judge tdawg based solely on his friends but i do think it warrants a close look at what people are saying here. sorry tdawg this has little to do with you but i think it was worth saying.

I hope I don't have fervent supporters, and I did explicitly tell people who had issues with other members of the community to not bring them in as a proxy to me. I think there is a level where you have to judge someone based on their friends. This is why I sent the messages to the admins that I did. Jack being banned reflects poorly on me, and I have to decide at what level of evidence / accusation would I cut ties. I did pull back from that friendship a lot through the situation, but it still feels wrong cutting him off completely when I don't know what he did. 

As of right now the bans from the whole drama leave him in the middle of the pack? Depending how you look at it. 

"dgcza / Cazz / john ling: Community Ban
J@ck XDDD: All server ban (appealable after 6 months)(Demotion)
Battons: All server ban (appealable after 3 months)
Wende: All server ban
Trundler: All server ban
Alichay: Discord Perma Ban
Proper: Discord Perma Ban" 

I did see the behavior from those who were community banned so all I can do is compare  against that vs those who were just All server banned without a wait time for appeal. This left me in basically limbo. 

i don't believe in guilt by association for the most part for a lot of reasons but i guess my main concern is that a lot of these people seem to be expecting something. i'm trying my best not to start shit but some former admins have given the impression of favoritism regarding some of the creeps of this server and some of your endorsements have mentioned one of these admins by name. i don't want to make this all about your friends and i'm sorry for vagueposting but i guess what i'm really getting at is that with certain ban appeals coming up, i wouldn't want to see any favoritism coming out of the admin team.

I can agree with this; All I can do is say "im not doing that." For anything else you have to look at my record, which I hope represents me well.

[Damien]

I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge TDawg for this kind of thing or use it as a reason to deny him for admin. When you know who got banned I wanted to pry to know what happened and get the full story but realized that's not very productive or a very positive thing to do. I think that as long as TDawg can recognize that prying in situations like that ruins victim confidentiality (Which I think he does, The guy has one of the strongest heads on his shoulders in the community) then this shouldn't be an issue in the future. Making a mountain out of a molehill for this kind of thing is a little insane but both sides of the arguments have good points. 

A lot of people in this community have ruined the potential to have any kind of cohesive conversation in community matters so I can see how this turned into a full on forums argument. People can express concern on matters they think is relevant and it shouldn't reflect poorly on the person with concerns as long as the reason is valid and within the realm of reason. This isn't like the spider argument at all where people are blowing things out of proportion (Invalid, not within the realm of reason). I trust TDawg even if he's associated with people I don't consider very nice people and I would hope that he gets his shot at admin because I think he's unbiased and he has the knowledge and experience to do smart things and not dumb things.

[tiefling lesbian]

@tiefling lesbian  Once again I don't appreciate my messages to you being leaked. I messaged Tiefling after the big ban message went out; I was fully ready to cut ties with Jack and other people in that discord depending on what evidence could be presented.

I told Jack that I was very concerned and he told me he wanted to be as transparent as possible, and that he felt he had done nothing wrong. Recognizing that it was a sensitive situation I did the correct thing and asked the person I believed who had the most negative view of Jack on the admin team because they would be the most careful with the situation. I did not message any of the victims because 1 that could be harassment and 2 I didn't know for sure who they were. I could guess due to who had been talking to Jack most recently, but had no first hand knowledge.

Since my logs were apparently leaked once again I feel no reason why they should not be included here. 





My issue at the time was that Jack got a less sever ban compared to the people who called Battons a Pedophile and I had no idea how severe his behavior was. I still don't to be honest. I have pulled back from interacting with him a lot, but it feels weird completely ghosting him.

ALL HE EVER TOLD ME ABOUT THE SITUATIONS WHEN THE BANS DROPPED WAS THAT HE WOULD BE AS TRANSPARENT AS POSSIBLE. 

Whatever you want to do that its up to you, he never sent me logs and I never asked for them. I asked tiefling what she thought would be most appropriate for me to see after the bans dropped. 

My knowledge of the situation came almost exclusively from being around in calls when Bab and Jack were talking and knowing about some Florida trip way back when. I still technically don't know how involved either of them where in the ban. I also never asked for logs from anyone besides Jack? I guess now I know that would include Bab. 

Also please recognize that AT THE TIME I didn't know what Jack as I say in the messages there was a wide range of possibility. However, I did get conflicting information on the severity when I asked leaving me very much in the dark as to what I should do. 

If you want to turn my admin app into a relitigating this drama. Then by all means feel free, but there really isn't very much I can say about the situation. 

For those who want a TLDR: TLDR I asked if it was appropriate for me to see Jack's logs. I was told no and so I did not see Jacks logs. I left it there. Also this is the second time my communications about a relatively sensitive  issue have been leaked and I don't appreciate the pattern. Just send me a dm and ask or ask me to leak my own logs, I probably will just send you them if the other party is ok with it. 

I am sending this one a little hot so please if you want clarification, Just Ask.

We've discussed this privately, but I just want to summarize/clarify. I didn't leak the logs, but I did tell bab about tdawg asking as I was concerned information might get leaked and wanted her to be aware. At the time I wasn't sure I had convinced him in our conversation and could only assume he wasn't the only one trying to get information, but I am confident now that he didn't seek leaks.

[TDawg4]

I've never seen the full exchange before this, I was shown specifically what you were asking for, which was done as I said, out of concern for my privacy and well-being by Tiefling and considering you were asking if it was okay to see something incredibly personal even after being told no, I feel was a valid thing for her to have done. But seeing the full log makes me feel even more uncomfortable.

There was no need to push further after being explicitly told that what you were asking for of her was wildly inappropriate, I understand being confused by the situation but the way you went about it was super inappropriate and it should've ended when Tiefling said 'inappropriate behavior towards women based on multiple pieces of evidence'.

The only reason I chose to bring it up again on your application was that you specifically stated the opposite of what *actually* happened and that was incredibly concerning to me considering you are applying for a position where you'd be the highest currently achievable rank in your part of the community who has to actively handle those situations as they arise, which I also feel is a valid concern to share here. 

It was not shared to 'relitigate' any drama, I simply planned to share my concern with you about getting the promotion as one does on an application with open responses for feedback, and see what your response was to it to see whether or not I could personally trust you with handling those situations going further, everything that came after my post explaining my concern was not of my own volition or want.

-

Also, it seems certain people believe I confirmed in some way that the admin chat was being leaked? I said multiple times that I didn't know, I was not involved, didn't care, and didn't care to know. Don't know what's goin' on with that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

True that is true. I did not ask a "general feelings" question to all the admins. What I asked tiefling was unique compared to the others. And from what you originally posted It 100% is a valid concern. What I intended to convey was that the information conveyed to me from admins was minimal and the best I could do was get general feelings. 
I was told it is Wildly Inappropriate to ask, but that did not match up with the other bans as I mentioned to tea. This is why I asked for more context. I just didn't want to be party to something like lots of laced's friends were. I talked with them and they felt terrible about that situation and that really was making me think. 

My first question was "do you think its wrong" when asked for clarification I clarified where my feelings were at the time which were driving me to ask that question.

I got told it was wrong so I asked a second different question or which was essentially "what I should do instead" 

My second question was not relitigating the same point relating to logs. It was asking a different question about the nature of the ban I did not ask for specifics after being told it was "wildly inappropriate" to ask for them. In the second part I was not demanding anything or even asking a question, I was sharing with tiefling where my thoughts were add and if she could do anything to point them in the right direction as far as how I should act. I actually did get more of an answer when I asked for direction which was Tiefling wishing that the ban was more sever/wide reaching. This did influence me and how I have moved forward since then. 

The goal was to not nibble around the edges looking for a way in. It was direction for how I should behave especially in the context of laced's recent ban. 

Also I'll add from what you have said I think the things you are saying fit. You don't know me well, and you feeling like your putting yourself out there and being vulnerable especially now in a public space is obviously miserable. 


Looking back, I could have been clearer my stance but I was writing as a conversation not a forum post. I wasn't asking to be convinced, but asking for a yes or no from tiefling on the logs issue. (I was basically outsourcing the question to someone who knew more and I knew would take a strong stance based on that info). 

I am sorry my Admin app is dragging you back through this as you have tried to step back from the community as a whole.

[angel]

True that is true. I did not ask a "general feelings" question to all the admins. What I asked tiefling was unique compared to the others. And from what you originally posted It 100% is a valid concern. What I intended to convey was that the information conveyed to me from admins was minimal and the best I could do was get general feelings. 
I was told it is Wildly Inappropriate to ask, but that did not match up with the other bans as I mentioned to tea. This is why I asked for more context. I just didn't want to be party to something like lots of laced's friends were. I talked with them and they felt terrible about that situation and that really was making me think. 

My first question was "do you think its wrong" when asked for clarification I clarified where my feelings were at the time which were driving me to ask that question.

I got told it was wrong so I asked a second different question or which was essentially "what I should do instead" 

My second question was not relitigating the same point relating to logs. It was asking a different question about the nature of the ban I did not ask for specifics after being told it was "wildly inappropriate" to ask for them. In the second part I was not demanding anything or even asking a question, I was sharing with tiefling where my thoughts were add and if she could do anything to point them in the right direction as far as how I should act. I actually did get more of an answer when I asked for direction which was Tiefling wishing that the ban was more sever/wide reaching. This did influence me and how I have moved forward since then. 

The goal was to not nibble around the edges looking for a way in. It was direction for how I should behave especially in the context of laced's recent ban. 

Also I'll add from what you have said I think the things you are saying fit. You don't know me well, and you feeling like your putting yourself out there and being vulnerable especially now in a public space is obviously miserable. 


Looking back, I could have been clearer my stance but I was writing as a conversation not a forum post. I wasn't asking to be convinced, but asking for a yes or no from tiefling on the logs issue. (I was basically outsourcing the question to someone who knew more and I knew would take a strong stance based on that info). 

I am sorry my Admin app is dragging you back through this as you have tried to step back from the community as a whole.

Thank you for clarifying this for me and thank you for acknowledging and addressing my concern, I truly appreciate it.

As I said, I understood why you had reacted in the way you did, it was a tough situation for everyone and I didn't share my concern here by any means to create any or dredge up old 'drama'. I simply just wanted to see how you, yourself would respond to it when it was brought up as it's something that had made me uncomfortable after being told about.

While I am still distancing myself, I do still care about the community and those inside of it and I guess I just wanted my own personal reassurance that it'd still be in good hands and that situations like the one being talked about here would be properly handled if you were to be promoted, and I do trust that it will be. 

I've never had any big problems with you outside of this incident, and have had otherwise only good experiences while interacting with and being around you. I think you're a great staff member, and while I'm still not putting in a vote due to my activity, I do think that if you were promoted, you'd make an excellent Admin and I wish you the best of luck going forward.

[slater]

You should provide evidence if you're going to derail with vague accusations.

Like I said, "It's a devastating breach of privacy and yes I do not have "evidence," because I left the discord for other reasons and because it became very sensitive to a certain amount of people that got blocked from viewing stuff while others close got to view all of this information that was being leaked."

Any admin chat leaks were all in the "hidden" channel that was specifically for women until close friends were added, claiming it was a "women's only channel." I clearly couldn't see it because people that weren't trusted were excluded from seeing it. So, how would I gain evidence if it's hidden? I'm already done replying cause it's just back and forth and I'm not going to do that to TDawg. 

[JesseTheUndeadCowboy]

Well.... now that all is done with I can say that I think tdawg would make a fine admin as long as he remembers most of the things discussed here. Tdawg has be willing to talk to me about most stuff even some personal stuff I had issues with ever since I came back to the server and he has been very polite/professional to me usually. Anyway just 1+ from me.

[Dildo Shwaggins]

I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge TDawg for this kind of thing or use it as a reason to deny him for admin. When you know who got banned I wanted to pry to know what happened and get the full story but realized that's not very productive or a very positive thing to do. I think that as long as TDawg can recognize that prying in situations like that ruins victim confidentiality (Which I think he does, The guy has one of the strongest heads on his shoulders in the community) then this shouldn't be an issue in the future. Making a mountain out of a molehill for this kind of thing is a little insane but both sides of the arguments have good points. 

A lot of people in this community have ruined the potential to have any kind of cohesive conversation in community matters so I can see how this turned into a full on forums argument. People can express concern on matters they think is relevant and it shouldn't reflect poorly on the person with concerns as long as the reason is valid and within the realm of reason. This isn't like the spider argument at all where people are blowing things out of proportion (Invalid, not within the realm of reason). I trust TDawg even if he's associated with people I don't consider very nice people and I would hope that he gets his shot at admin because I think he's unbiased and he has the knowledge and experience to do smart things and not dumb things.

I would like to expand on the points made in this post, particularly "A lot of people in this community have ruined the potential to have any kind of cohesive conversation in community matters" 

Since April's explosion, even though the more "explosive" discourse for lack of a better term has calmed down, I would like to expand on it and say that in general Dink's has not really felt like too much of a community at all ever since. It's been civil play on server and mostly civil on general gaming things on the forums, but several staff apps including this one and many community-focused things have had anything from small swipes to not-so-subtle insults thrown around, rep patterns, and overall lack of usage of common community spaces (the main discord hasn't had any sort of game night for several months, and forums are mostly staff apps and simple server items. I do commend those that have posted about things the community as a whole has interest in, but still, it's not unnoticed. 

What it feels like right now is a subsection of separate communities utilizing the GMod server to play but otherwise being their own communities where some people have bad blood. This is not to say friend groups are a bad thing, everyone can have friends, nor am I attempting to invalidate anyone's bad experiences they have had with others that leads to valid resentment of someone else, or that there aren't cultural problems in the game-verse. But, there's no hope of this community functioning cohesively with the current state of everything either. Any solution would start at administration, as ownership is overall absent, and as we have seen, mass bans don't necessarily accomplish anything either. But in the end, it's still up to everyone here as well to actually achieve anything that any administration catalyzes. If people aren't willing to do that, it's going to be a rinse and repeat of butting heads on forums. 

Tl;dr it's a community divided, and it's gonna take a lot for any semblance of unity.

[Ryan]

I was only on the road for 8 hours. What the fuck, guys.