[Foxka]

While it does kind of ruin the art of intuition, c would have to sus because he doesn't know for sure what happened

[Jerminator00]

I believe deductive reasoning should be grounds for a valid Kos, given enough proper evidence. Let me recall two situations in which I used what I believe to be sound reasoning to make calls that I will still defend as being in the right.

In a game on that haunted cathedral map I noticed a player crouched on top of the fountain just outside of the area with all the staircases, kind of a weird place so I put an internal suspicion on the player, nothing worth calling them out as sus just a reminder to keep my eye on them. Fast forward through the round, theres a handful of living players left, about five or so with no or at most one unconfirmed (mostly traveling in a group so I was able to see that they were alive) and the sound of c4 beeping starts to be heard. I notice that I hear it near the fountain, so I go up to the spot where the guy I saw earlier was at and find a radio. I immediately call out the radio and and place sus on the guy in voice, since I never saw him place it so i can't confirm he put it down. I leave it there, didn't see the point in destroying the radio, now that it's existence was known it was harmless, and begin walking away. Only, I didn't get far as I stopped when I heard the guy call out in voice that there wasn't a radio there. I turn around and see him up on the fountain, and lo and behold there was no radio at his feet where I had just seen it a second ago. Immediately, I shoot him in the head with my sniper and the game ends, he was indeed the last T. He reports me and I end up getting slain for it, because 'I didn't see him do anything', despite fully explaining/justifying myself as I've described here, albeit in less words. Heavily disagreed with it, but it was just a single slay so I didn't really care all that much about making a thread or anything, whatever.

Meanwhile on christmas town I'm watching from the rooftops and notice someone walking around carrying an identified T body. This immediately catches my attention and begin to watch him as he ducked into a building. Expecting an obvious defib, I waited on the rooftops watching the exits of the building to see if anyone entered or left at any time, which they did not since the one guy and the T body. After a bit of waiting, it didn't happen immediately, the T gets defibbed, again without a single person entering or leaving the building after the first guy took the T body, and I call out the guy as a T for obviously defibbing his T buddy. He quickly starts trying to deny the claim and shortly exits the building, which to me further proved he was in fact a T, and we get in a firefight. He guns me down, Ts end up winning the match, and the guy reports me for a false kos. This time though I don't get slain, with the staff member who handled the report verbally or textually (honestly don't remember) defending my call as being correct when the T I called out questions the status of my slay. However, another staff that was on stated that they disagreed and thought I should have been slain for the kos, even saying something to the effect in a PM to me.


If you've read all that, I thank you for your patience and apologize for making you read all that. What I'm trying to get at is that far too often I've seen the argument of someone not being able to physically see something as being ground for them not being able to do something which I just can not agree with. Now, I'm not saying that people should be able to kill others for any suspicious behavior that makes it seem like they might, might being the keyword here, be the traitor. I'm saying that if they have enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion a player should be able to act on that conclusion. Which means that things kinda need to stay in this weird grey area where things are ultimately left up to staff discretion.

Also for that A, B, C person scenario, if the body is ided before anyone enters the room or immediately after the firefight is over and the guy claims self defense, completely agree on it being rdm to kill him. You can distrust them sure, but that kind of distrust alone is not worth a kos.

[~$$~ BlackCatTheGreat ♣♣]

damn jerminator, that is some good deduction and logic. If i was staff you would be ok in my book, which is the problem as already said, it is up to staff discretion with this stuff. You got the T using what you had and you did it. I Have done this twice now, with hearing manhacks in the bathroom on community pool and i see a guy walk out of there, blast him and he was indeed a T. He also was the one who put manhacks down. This second time, Jacob walks down into the freezer on fast food and what he saw down there was a scary site with someone iding bodies, he was a susy boy. Jacob even was questioning what was happening as i guess he saw him hesitate a bit with the iding proccess, so i just guned him down, and lo and behold he was a traitor. A little gun jumpy, but i feel it was a legit kill. Sure you can say "It was sus at best" But why, it was obvious. He was T, he got killed. I did my job as innocent in killing a traitor. Got slayed for it though, even though logic would say i played the game and won it.

[MiniMe]

I really think some of the rules need to be re-written. More like the not killing an afk when everyone around them is dead or the not killing someone for being with a kos player (to extent).

[EpicGuy]

Those were valid kills in my eyes Jerminator. The problem you most likely faced was not explaining yourself properly in your report. If you explained yourself like you did just now in your report on the haunted cathedral map, I doubt you would have been slain. These situational reports are just that, situational. If someone reports you (not Jerminator) and your only response is “xd I knew it was you retard” and I look at the death scene and you were across the map, you’re probably getting a slay because you gave no indication of actually knowing who it was. But if you take the time to actually explain yourself, much like Jerminator did here, and show me your thought process, you’re less likely to be slain.

I’d much rather read a paragraph explaining why you did what you did than “xd rawr you’re bad”. I know you want to get back to playing, but sitting out a couple of seconds is better than sitting out a couple of rounds.

[EpicGuy]

Oh, since this is already a thread, I have a list of things that should be fixed with the current rule set. Nothing too serious. Most of these are minor changes and won’t affect gameplay or overall experience too much.

1. Remove the Star Wars spoilers section

2. Going to make a blanket statement about grammar (capitalizing Innocent, Detective, Traitor, etc.)

3. Make “offences” “offenses”. The majority of the playerbase is American, and I would assume whoever wrote that is also American. Please fix, it’s been bothering me for quite some time.

4. Add crossfire to the list of things that is RDM. Not just for Traitors, but for Innocents and Detectives as well.

5. Remove the singing “rule” under chat spam. Liking something is subjective, and all singing through GMod is guaranteed to be awful.

6. Remove the rule saying that it’s allowable to kill someone who opened a door to a claimed room. More often than not, people don’t do a good enough job of explaining what room they’re claiming, and if someone opens the door, they shouldn’t be blown away (assuming they don’t do anything traitorous). That’s bollocks.

7. If you’re not going to remove the rule about opening the door, remove the line that says you can be KOSed for entering a claimed rule. That contradicts what was said above that (5th bullet point from the bottom of “Reasons to call a Kill-on-Sight(KOS).”

8. Amend the rule that says that you can only call a KOS for failure to respond to a live check in Overtime. If there are enough people to warrant a live check or KOS, it shouldn’t matter when you call it (you know, within reason).

9. Change the rule that says that you can call suspicion to be AFK in Overtime. Another contradiction, because above the rules say that you can kill someone for being AFK in Overtime.

[Foxka]

Jumping on what Epicguy said, i think killing AFKs should be allowed if there's, say, a few unidentified bodies laying around them. Currently you can only do that when there are manhacks or T turrets about, which is kind of dumb.

[Stupid Fucking Dragon]

I will agree that sometimes the rules do take the fun out of the game, specifically test or KOS and such. I've said it before, but there's nothing worse than waiting a few rounds to become a traitor, possibly even needing that traitor round to be Top Player for that map, and having it ruined by a detective that happened to spawn near you and guess lucky. 

As for the given scenario, I personally think the rules are fine with that situation. If A shoots B, and C walks in, sees B's body on the ground, C has no right to shoot, and that's how it should stay. If A has the fire discipline to not shoot at C, and is even somewhat damaged, they are at a disadvantage. Once people start to surround, if the detective decides to KOS him, then that's their choice, but innocents should keep their safety on. 

Think about it. You're A. You're a traitor and you shoot B. B fights back and damages you down to 25 health, but you kill him. C walks in and you say he shot first. C doesn't believe you. How would you feel if C kills you without knowing if you actually shot first? What if B actually did shoot first and was innocent? If there are no restrictions on these rules, you will be killed for killing an innocent. Nobody saw the guy RDM you so they will kill you. It gives the RDMers more reign over the game.

Just want you guys to think about these real quick, see if you can find ways to bend the rules around them so they work better. Still, I am not for a change in the rules regarding this situation.