[Luke Warm HotDog Water]

To answer Nopleez, simple. If an RDM'er comes up, shoots me, I deagle him in the face but you only see me deagling him in the face, and you shoot me. You'll get slain, why? I defended myself. I killed an Innocent who did a KOS'able act, damaging me, and as such you do not have the right to immedietly open fire on me as per the Self-Defense rule.

Self-Defense is a rule that overrules alot of the standard problems. While yes Traitors can lie about it, it is again simple. You cannot kill people on suspicion that they're lieing. Because that is killing on Suspicion, wich is as we all know RDM, if this happens before Overtime. Thats why the Innocents have to remain vigilant. And if they do not know the full situation of a firefight, they have little to no right to interveine in said firefight untill KOS's are called etc.

so the way around this is to cal the KOS.... which is slayable because you cant call a KOS because you dont have proof because they killed an INNO but you dont know why but they did kill an inno which is KOSable in teh rules... EBING INNO IS HARD.

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To answer Nopleez, simple. If an RDM'er comes up, shoots me, I deagle him in the face but you only see me deagling him in the face, and you shoot me. You'll get slain, why? I defended myself. I killed an Innocent who did a KOS'able act, damaging me, and as such you do not have the right to immedietly open fire on me as per the Self-Defense rule.

Self-Defense is a rule that overrules alot of the standard problems. While yes Traitors can lie about it, it is again simple. You cannot kill people on suspicion that they're lieing. Because that is killing on Suspicion, wich is as we all know RDM, if this happens before Overtime. Thats why the Innocents have to remain vigilant. And if they do not know the full situation of a firefight, they have little to no right to interveine in said firefight untill KOS's are called etc.

right this is a great point. the issue isnt the rule its the consistency wiith the rule and some mods' apparent attempt to bend it our use double standards

agree^^^^

[EpicGuy]

A couple of things:
1. No one is going to ban you for making a point. I’ve made far “worse” points and have yet to be banned. This is a TTT server, no one cares if you have a differing opinion. I want there to be differing opinions, it helps make the server better.

2. I’d like to watch your video. Make sure to post a link to it somewhere.

3. You don’t have to believe me if I say that I was damaged from someone or something. If you kill me and I wasn’t lying, I’m going to report you. If some muppet RDMs you and you kill him, then I kill you, don’t act like you wouldn’t want me slain. It’s happened time and time and time again.

Also, let’s not all think there is some conspiracy nepotism horse crap going on. I don’t care what your rank is. If you screw up, I’m slaying you. If this is such a big deal (which it hasn’t been since I’ve bstarted playing here in 2014), let the Admins know you want a rule written, and they’ll think about writing it.

[Luke Warm HotDog Water]

A couple of things:
1. No one is going to ban you for making a point. I’ve made far “worse” points and have yet to be banned. This is a TTT server, no one cares if you have a differing opinion. I want there to be differing opinions, it helps make the server better.

2. I’d like to watch your video. Make sure to post a link to it somewhere.

3. You don’t have to believe me if I say that I was damaged from someone or something. If you kill me and I wasn’t lying, I’m going to report you. If some muppet RDMs you and you kill him, then I kill you, don’t act like you wouldn’t want me slain. It’s happened time and time and time again.

Also, let’s not all think there is some conspiracy nepotism horse crap going on. I don’t care what your rank is. If you screw up, I’m slaying you. If this is such a big deal (which it hasn’t been since I’ve bstarted playing here in 2014), let the Admins know you want a rule written, and they’ll think about writing it.

actually no, i wouldnt report because i have been playing on this server for 2 years and for 2 YEARS i have been under the understanding that IF YOU KILL A INNO YOU CAN BE KILLED. that has always been the rule for 2 years and it hasnt been a problem for anyone until today when it apprently changed. it has always been that way and it has happened MANY OF TIMES where no one was slain or reported because it was UNDERSTOOD that if you kill an inno for ANY reason you can be killed for it. that had ALWAYS been the rule here atleast for me, fro 2 years. and i would like to think for many others

[The Dutch Problem]

Ah no I meant there that during the firefight of two parties, you cannot shoot either of them. But if one of them calls a KOS on the other, you can shoot the person who is KOS'd by the other. Traitors can again lie here, and the rule of suspicion applies here too ofcourse, and its up to who calls it first. I can see why people think this'd be bullshit, but thats just how TTT goes. Deception, trust, innocent, traitor. All of this means that you have to trust your instincts but you still have to answer to the rules of the domain you play it on.

[nopleez]

To answer Nopleez, simple. If an RDM'er comes up, shoots me, I deagle him in the face but you only see me deagling him in the face, and you shoot me. You'll get slain, why? I defended myself. I killed an Innocent who did a KOS'able act, damaging me, and as such you do not have the right to immedietly open fire on me as per the Self-Defense rule.

Self-Defense is a rule that overrules alot of the standard problems. While yes Traitors can lie about it, it is again simple. You cannot kill people on suspicion that they're lieing. Because that is killing on Suspicion, wich is as we all know RDM, if this happens before Overtime. Thats why the Innocents have to remain vigilant. And if they do not know the full situation of a firefight, they have little to no right to interveine in said firefight untill KOS's are called etc.

My point still stands. If a player sees a person killing another player and does not witness the self defense aspect then they have every right to kill that player. The player has performed a KOSable act, meaning they can be killed.

This is similar to a player claiming they are proven. If a player says "I'm proven innocent" do I just have to believe them? If they actually did test and were proven through a map based tester (Community pool) and I was not present, there is no way for me to know whether they are telling the truth or not. Should I be slain for this sort of incident as well?

The core gameplay mechanics of TTT involve lying and deception. If a player is forced to believe that someone was defending themself because that person said so then that takes away a huge aspect of TTT. Slaying players for playing the game the way it was meant to be played is not good.

[The Dutch Problem]

And now to jump on what Luke said, I had been a staff member for 2.5 years, the only thing I know, and I was just a measely Moderator *lenny* was that while killing an Innocent for NO REASON is KOSable yes, but if the Innocent had given a proper reason to be killed, AKA bring an explosive barrel to a group, shoot at someone (T baiting), damage someone etc. then the killer cannot be killed for this. Why? RDM train much? As that would mean that Person A shoots at Person B. Person B kills Person A, they're both inno. Person C kills Person B for this. Person D kills Person C for killin an Innocent and then Person D is gunned down for killing another Innocent.

As you can see here, this would just lead to RDM city. And a very, very bad server.

[Luke Warm HotDog Water]

And now to jump on what Luke said, I had been a staff member for 2.5 years, the only thing I know, and I was just a measely Moderator *lenny* was that while killing an Innocent for NO REASON is KOSable yes, but if the Innocent had given a proper reason to be killed, AKA bring an explosive barrel to a group, shoot at someone (T baiting), damage someone etc. then the killer cannot be killed for this. Why? RDM train much? As that would mean that Person A shoots at Person B. Person B kills Person A, they're both inno. Person C kills Person B for this. Person D kills Person C for killin an Innocent and then Person D is gunned down for killing another Innocent.

As you can see here, this would just lead to RDM city. And a very, very bad server

but bringing a barrel to a group IS A VALID REASON. ESPECIALLY if youre in that group. there would be multipel witnesses IN THAT GROUP. there are exceptions to this rule. AND THAT IS WHY IM SAYING THIS IS SUCH A GRAY AREA. IM SIMPLY REFERRING TO SOMEONE SHOOTING SOMEONE ELSE. IE :::: DOING DAMAGE TO AN INNO OR DETECTIVE IS KOSABLE. WHICH IS WHAT IM GETTING AT. NOT BRING A BARREL AROUND

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you are drawing connections that do not connect. im talking about the rule. the last bullet point in REASONS TO KOS.

[The Dutch Problem]

Why am I doing more explaining then the bloody staff, god damn.

Well No, Nopleez, if you shoot me for that, then you're not playing the game as intended as you are not giving me a chance to use deception. As any attempt of doing so would immedietly lead to my head being ripped off. Not to mention the field day's RDM'ers will have, as you can check previous post as an example, but now add that neither of the Persons had seen the other do the act. RDM city, once more.

You are being punished for breaking the established rules, while you may disagree that they're there, this is the first time I see people actively complain about them and I have had a long run as staff... IDK what is the problem now. While again, you may believe they are bullshit, I find them rather appropriate and supportive of gameplay.

As to the point of claiming Innocence, I have yet to believe a claim of innocence that I myself have not witnissed or was confirmed by a Detective. So, you do not HAVE to believe a claim of innocence, but if you kill him later and he WAS actually proven, you'll be slain for killing a proven man. Epic made a nice version of this I havent used, what if you got tested on the map tester, were proven Innocent, later in Overtime, I shoot you out of suspicion. I then have RDM'd you as I have killed a proven man. And before the self-defense thing is brought up. If Innocent A gets attacked by Proven A and Innocent A wins, Innocent A has not RDM'd due to the self-defense rule overruling that.

EDIT: I was simply throwing in examples of valid reasons to shoot a man, regardless of what role that person has. As killing a man for a valid reason is not RDM, it is also not a reason to shoot the killer as he did the thing you would've done as well. Blow his brains out. The point I am making is, the role of others does not matter in gameplay. If you're part of the Innocent team, and you shoot a man for a legitimate reason other innocents do not have any right of shooting you. As the kill was, legitimate. At most can they put a suspicion on you if they dont know the situation or do not believe you.

[nopleez]

Why am I doing more explaining then the bloody staff, god damn.

Well No, Nopleez, if you shoot me for that, then you're not playing the game as intended as you are not giving me a chance to use deception. As any attempt of doing so would immedietly lead to my head being ripped off. Not to mention the field day's RDM'ers will have, as you can check previous post as an example, but now add that neither of the Persons had seen the other do the act. RDM city, once more.

I hope you understand that RDM is to kill without a valid reason. The scenarios presented in this thread all lead to killing with a valid reason. The reason being: I saw a player kill an innocent, so I killed them. 

As to the point of claiming Innocence, I have yet to believe a claim of innocence that I myself have not witnissed or was confirmed by a Detective. So, you do not HAVE to believe a claim of innocence, but if you kill him later and he WAS actually proven, you'll be slain for killing a proven man. Epic made a nice version of this I havent used, what if you got tested on the map tester, were proven Innocent, later in Overtime, I shoot you out of suspicion. I then have RDM'd you as I have killed a proven man. And before the self-defense thing is brought up. If Innocent A gets attacked by Proven A and Innocent A wins, Innocent A has not RDM'd due to the self-defense rule overruling that.

I heavily disagree with this paragraph. 

• Player A tests himself and is proven inno (by a map tester), Player B does not witness this.
  
• Player A performs a kosable act.
  
• Player B kills player A for performing said act.
  
• Player B is slain for killing Player A because he was proven but Player B had absolutely no way of knowing he was proven.
  

How is this a fair situation?

[Luke Warm HotDog Water]

Why am I doing more explaining then the bloody staff, god damn.

Well No, Nopleez, if you shoot me for that, then you're not playing the game as intended as you are not giving me a chance to use deception. As any attempt of doing so would immedietly lead to my head being ripped off. Not to mention the field day's RDM'ers will have, as you can check previous post as an example, but now add that neither of the Persons had seen the other do the act. RDM city, once more.

I hope you understand that RDM is to kill without a valid reason. The scenarios presented in this thread all lead to killing with a valid reason. The reason being: I saw a player kill an innocent, so I killed them. 

As to the point of claiming Innocence, I have yet to believe a claim of innocence that I myself have not witnissed or was confirmed by a Detective. So, you do not HAVE to believe a claim of innocence, but if you kill him later and he WAS actually proven, you'll be slain for killing a proven man. Epic made a nice version of this I havent used, what if you got tested on the map tester, were proven Innocent, later in Overtime, I shoot you out of suspicion. I then have RDM'd you as I have killed a proven man. And before the self-defense thing is brought up. If Innocent A gets attacked by Proven A and Innocent A wins, Innocent A has not RDM'd due to the self-defense rule overruling that.

I heavily disagree with this paragraph. 

• Player A tests himself and is proven inno (by a map tester), Player B does not witness this.
  
• Player A performs a kosable act.
  
• Player B kills player A for performing said act.
  
• Player B is slain for killing Player A because he was proven but Player B had absolutely no way of knowing he was proven.
  

How is this a fair situation?

Player A is proven innocent by a detective tester its in chat and everyone knows it. if he performs a slayable act such as KOSing an innocent player then he will be dealt with through a report. Player B kills him, but it does not matter, player B is not proven innocent and he just killed a PROVEN innocent, he is therfore KOSed becasue a proven was trying to kill him. It isnt fair, but it is fixed through a simple report "attempted RDM" "karma baiting" whateveryou wantto call it and the player A will be slayed. there is ur justice.