[Foxka]

Intentional delay is still slayable. We don't want to slay new players for simply being the last T trying to play

But when the new player spends 6 minutes doing absolutely nothing which makes everyone else wait you should still give them a slay

[JesseTheUndeadCowboy]

Intentional delay is still slayable. We don't want to slay new players for simply being the last T trying to play

Alright fair enough but I have seen some players who are not new at the game delay on their t round in the server on purpose sometimes by just camping one room and not doing anything. I just haven’t seen people getting slained for that ever since I returned to the server. I could be wrong but it just seems a lot less common now even when the player isn’t new and seems to be doing it on purpose. Maybe I should just gather proof of it then next time some regular or non new player delays on purpose and doesn’t get slained for it.

[sterale14]

Intentional delay is still slayable. We don't want to slay new players for simply being the last T trying to play

Alright fair enough but I have seen some players who are not new at the game delay on their t round in the server on purpose sometimes by just camping one room and not doing anything. I just haven’t seen people getting slained for that ever since I returned to the server. I could be wrong but it just seems a lot less common now even when the player isn’t new and seems to be doing it on purpose. Maybe I should just gather proof of it then next time some regular or non new player delays on purpose and doesn’t get slained for it.

i think it all depends. A t in a t room waiting to use a t trap when someone is actually close to it should be okay. A t farming chickens and blatantly not playing is when its obtuse.

[Henry]

I think it would be pertinent to make bans and other punishments a little more consistent and newbie friendly. A major issue I see is that a player can come one, play for a few days, screw up once, and get a perma ban. Its one thing if its a guest who has joined the server for the first time and decides to rdm, but a player who returns to the server to play and breaks a single rule is liable for a permanent ban given how things are being enforced right now. This thread for example https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/sho...?tid=12439 the player had been around for a few days and received a permanent ban from one report for killing nobody. We don't have a sliding scale for bans, there's no sensitivity to what kind of player it is, absolutely nothing, the only people who have any lenience are our donors. The threshold for who deserves a ban is so low, it needs to be higher. We shouldn't be banning people who have been around for even a few days, those players aren't likely to be mass rdmers and it drives people away. New players are not likely to appeal to be in the server if they don't have any investment yet, and we don't want to be driving players away who make small mistakes, players don't want to invest in a server if they're going to be banned as soon as someone sees them make one mistake. I'm not saying we necessarily need to stop punishing these kinds of players, but I don't think a ban (permanent or otherwise) should be our first choice. I think the player in that thread should well have just received 3 slays rather than a perma ban. And if it happens again then maybe a temp or permanent ban can be considered, but its evident that was a player that may have actually invested in the server if he weren't immediately banned.

I also think that ban requests should have at least a little required context, because everyone knows when staff are off there can be a fair amount of RDM happening from the majority of online players, so if someone kills an inno while an inno during a prop battle between a number of users, should that really be considered as evidence?

And please, if you take issue with what I said about my example, read the rest, comment on that, because my point isn't about the specifics of that example, its about general rules that might well apply to that example. Also please respond specifically to the rules I think would be useful to the "integrity" of my argument, since people seem to think that my next point cannot coincide with my previous point.

---

I think its especially important that we have some consistent rules that take into account the context of the action. I also think we need some more consistent application of rules for donors. We get people who join and spam the N word, yes they eventually get banned, but donors queue racist stuff and nothing happens unless someone points it out. I've never once seen it punished until I made a complaint in the Discord about uneven application.

[Cyrus]

Piggybacking off Henry, I was recently Permabanned (on my first ban) from a thread that Jesse had created. I have no issue with Jessie and have actually resolved any issues regarding that, but in the process I noticed a few things that I think are fundamentally wrong with this server moderation wise. Again, Jesse, or if anyone else is reading this, I am not attacking you and I do not intend to put the blame on you, because, well, it isn't your fault. Anyway, I take issue with the fact that a permaban is generally the first and only ban issued for players reported on the forums (regardless of what happened, whether staff members saw it). It seems that this server is superbly biased against those who have not played for an extended period of time, and rules/bans do not necessarily apply the same way. Should I have been banned for what I did? Yes! Should I have been permabanned though? Probably not! I spent the last few days before being banned contributing to the server as a player, and yes, some RDM did occur, but I still had the intention of playing and contributing positively to the server. Yes, I made mistakes, but should that be permbannable? I don't really view it that way because I have been banned to the same extent as someone who joined the server, rdm'd 7 people, then left. I think ban escalation is a huge part missing from this server, especially considering the server culture. Many regulars, donors, etc, can consistently rdm, grief, minge, and are slain or get away scot-free, because moderation tends to be very lax. I'm not saying these people should be banned permanently like I was, but I'm saying that I think that it will continue to drive away new players if the general server culture and how experienced players are treated is not consistent with new players. I think there should be more lee-way to new players, especially those that still would like to change and play on the server if they have been banned. Ban escalation is widely missing from this server, and instead of a system like 1-3-7-perma day bans, or 1-7-30-perma, (etc), it seems that if someone files a report, players are permabanned with no real hope.

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.


Again, the point I want to drive home isn't that I shouldn't have been banned, and it isn't that I'm attacking anyone. It's that I think that this server is very fun and enjoyable to be on, but it is far too harsh to players who want to join the community and it FUNDAMENTALLY has issues regarding how moderation is handled and there are major inconsistencies. Instead of a three strike system, or really, any effective system at all, new players are permabanned at a far higher rate and are punished much more than players who, for example, have donated or spent a large time on the server. It's especially misleading for new players such as myself, because I observed significant rdm, revenge rdm, propkill, etc ocurring from players who played a large amount of time on the server go unpunished, however, because my specific instances of grief were reported to the forums, my punishment was permanent ban, instead of a 1 day ban, 7 day ban, etc, to encourage me to still play on the server without griefing.

[Mr. EveryDay]

Remove the "no pre round RDM" because me and Lycan will never follow it 

For real though, make exploiting immediately KOSable. Bring back prop surfing KOS, because the only people that do it are trying to hide in the sky or exploit.

[saltychapdaddy]

Piggybacking off Henry, I was recently Permabanned (on my first ban) from a thread that Jesse had created. I have no issue with Jessie and have actually resolved any issues regarding that, but in the process I noticed a few things that I think are fundamentally wrong with this server moderation wise. Again, Jesse, or if anyone else is reading this, I am not attacking you and I do not intend to put the blame on you, because, well, it isn't your fault. Anyway, I take issue with the fact that a permaban is generally the first and only ban issued for players reported on the forums (regardless of what happened, whether staff members saw it). It seems that this server is superbly biased against those who have not played for an extended period of time, and rules/bans do not necessarily apply the same way. Should I have been banned for what I did? Yes! Should I have been permabanned though? Probably not! I spent the last few days before being banned contributing to the server as a player, and yes, some RDM did occur, but I still had the intention of playing and contributing positively to the server. Yes, I made mistakes, but should that be permbannable? I don't really view it that way because I have been banned to the same extent as someone who joined the server, rdm'd 7 people, then left. I think ban escalation is a huge part missing from this server, especially considering the server culture. Many regulars, donors, etc, can consistently rdm, grief, minge, and are slain or get away scot-free, because moderation tends to be very lax. I'm not saying these people should be banned permanently like I was, but I'm saying that I think that it will continue to drive away new players if the general server culture and how experienced players are treated is not consistent with new players. I think there should be more lee-way to new players, especially those that still would like to change and play on the server if they have been banned. Ban escalation is widely missing from this server, and instead of a system like 1-3-7-perma day bans, or 1-7-30-perma, (etc), it seems that if someone files a report, players are permabanned with no real hope.

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.


Again, the point I want to drive home isn't that I shouldn't have been banned, and it isn't that I'm attacking anyone. It's that I think that this server is very fun and enjoyable to be on, but it is far too harsh to players who want to join the community and it FUNDAMENTALLY has issues regarding how moderation is handled and there are major inconsistencies. Instead of a three strike system, or really, any effective system at all, new players are permabanned at a far higher rate and are punished much more than players who, for example, have donated or spent a large time on the server. It's especially misleading for new players such as myself, because I observed significant rdm, revenge rdm, propkill, etc ocurring from players who played a large amount of time on the server go unpunished, however, because my specific instances of grief were reported  to the forums, my punishment was permanent ban, instead of a 1 day ban, 7 day ban, etc, to encourage me to still play on the server without griefing.

I get what you're saying, but the rule for attempted mass/consistent RDM (regardless of how long someone has been on the server) is a permanent ban. The reason why new players are banned at a higher rate is simply because if someone who is a guest is causing issues, the natural assumption is to assume they're only on to cause trouble and need to be dealt with. The regulars, as much as I hate to admit it, do get away with sitting in the gray area on situations. I will not deny that fact. I'm only going to be speaking for myself here, but I usually try my best not to show any sort of bias in these situations. Naturally, we as humans will make mistakes and not make the right choice, causing the conundrum of showing "bias." The reason why a lot of these players go unpunished is because the people who they're prop killing/revenge rdming (etc) usually do not report the person doing it. In my case, I usually will slay the person who did it if someone makes a report and they do not forgive, unless the death scene/logs show me evidence that the one who reported initiated the conflict. I also agree that sometimes, staffing is inconsistent amongst us. Just like any other occupation, we all have our own approach to how to handle issues: some of us are more authoritarian than others, while others are more laid back and only step in when it gets too chaotic. Neither one of these are a bad thing, but I just want to reiterate to you that not everyone approaches situations the same way, and that we sometimes will make errors in judgement, mistakes, etc. In this case, Jesse supplied a great deal of evidence that you were causing issues with consistent attempted RDM/Mass RDM. That does result in a ruling of a permanent ban from the server, as I stated in the introduction of this response. I respect your opinion you have, but I've explained why I disagree. I hope you can respect that.

---

I think it would be pertinent to make bans and other punishments a little more consistent and newbie friendly. A major issue I see is that a player can come one, play for a few days, screw up once, and get a perma ban. Its one thing if its a guest who has joined the server for the first time and decides to rdm, but a player who returns to the server to play and breaks a single rule is liable for a permanent ban given how things are being enforced right now. This thread for example https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/sho...?tid=12439 the player had been around for a few days and received a permanent ban from one report for killing nobody. We don't have a sliding scale for bans, there's no sensitivity to what kind of player it is, absolutely nothing, the only people who have any lenience are our donors. The threshold for who deserves a ban is so low, it needs to be higher. We shouldn't be banning people who have been around for even a few days, those players aren't likely to be mass rdmers and it drives people away. New players are not likely to appeal to be in the server if they don't have any investment yet, and we don't want to be driving players away who make small mistakes, players don't want to invest in a server if they're going to be banned as soon as someone sees them make one mistake. I'm not saying we necessarily need to stop punishing these kinds of players, but I don't think a ban (permanent or otherwise) should be our first choice. I think the player in that thread should well have just received 3 slays rather than a perma ban. And if it happens again then maybe a temp or permanent ban can be considered, but its evident that was a player that may have actually invested in the server if he weren't immediately banned.

I also think that ban requests should have at least a little required context, because everyone knows when staff are off there can be a fair amount of RDM happening from the majority of online players, so if someone kills an inno while an inno during a prop battle between a number of users, should that really be considered as evidence?

And please, if you take issue with what I said about my example, read the rest, comment on that, because my point isn't about the specifics of that example, its about general rules that might well apply to that example. Also please respond specifically to the rules I think would be useful to the "integrity" of my argument, since people seem to think that my next point cannot coincide with my previous point.

---

I think its especially important that we have some consistent rules that take into account the context of the action. I also think we need some more consistent application of rules for donors. We get people who join and spam the N word, yes they eventually get banned, but donors queue racist stuff and nothing happens unless someone points it out. I've never once seen it punished until I made a complaint in the Discord about uneven application.

You're presenting a problem, but you're not offering any sort of a solution to the problem; I do agree that staffing amongst us is inconsistent as we all have different opinions on what's too much or "going too far," but it's because of the fact that we all approach situations differently that there is inconsistency on how staffing is done. I myself usually try not to overstep any boundaries when I'm handling issues on the server, but sometimes I make a mistake and overstep.  The problem with trying to address something like this is that staffing isn't always a black and white situation; in fact, it's usually a gray area problem. That's why sometimes I don't do anything because I feel like it'd be overstepping my boundaries and my sphere of influence as a Test Mod on TTT.

So what I want to ask you is this: What kind of solution do you think should be implemented to deal with this inconsistency with staffing? What do you think would help?

Simply complaining about it and expecting us to just magically fix it doesn't do anything; it just makes you look like an ass; I'd even go as far to say you're a "Karen" by doing that.

Just consider what I've said about coming up with a solution. If you can present one that is reasonable, I'll respect it. You can't fix problems on here or in the real world by simply complaining, you have to have initiative and think of ideas to solve a said issue. Just a life lesson I want you to take from what I'm saying.

[squid]

I think it would be pertinent to make bans and other punishments a little more consistent and newbie friendly. A major issue I see is that a player can come one, play for a few days, screw up once, and get a perma ban. Its one thing if its a guest who has joined the server for the first time and decides to rdm, but a player who returns to the server to play and breaks a single rule is liable for a permanent ban given how things are being enforced right now. This thread for example https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/sho...?tid=12439 the player had been around for a few days and received a permanent ban from one report for killing nobody. We don't have a sliding scale for bans, there's no sensitivity to what kind of player it is, absolutely nothing, the only people who have any lenience are our donors.

The first thing players see when joining the server is the server rules. Our rules aren't that much different than the rules of other TTT servers, so there's no excuses for not following the rules. Staff don't hunt for bans, new players are encouraged to join and be a part of the community, but if they join just to break the rules, it's very apparent they don't have the intention to stay. Why give those players another chance? Regarding the thread you linked, he did 20+ damage to more than three people, which is mass RDM. No reason to throw incends at innos when you're an inno. He is more than welcome to appeal. Everyone is treated the same, donors or regulars don't have any lenience to breaking the rules.

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.

Not sure who told you this, but this isn't true, backwards, even. Only moderators have perms to ban, and there's only around 5-6 mods currently, excluding the 2 admins. For the unbans, trusteds and tmods are included in this committee, so more people have say in unbans than bans. Also looking at your ban request, the permanent ban given to you for mass/constant RDM was fitting.

For real though, make exploiting immediately KOSable. Bring back prop surfing KOS, because the only people that do it are trying to hide in the sky or exploit.

Being in the sky just leads to that player being extremely vulnerable. Pretty much a free kill from the T's. There's no real benefit to doing it. As for exploiting:

[Mr. EveryDay]

I think it would be pertinent to make bans and other punishments a little more consistent and newbie friendly. A major issue I see is that a player can come one, play for a few days, screw up once, and get a perma ban. Its one thing if its a guest who has joined the server for the first time and decides to rdm, but a player who returns to the server to play and breaks a single rule is liable for a permanent ban given how things are being enforced right now. This thread for example https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/sho...?tid=12439 the player had been around for a few days and received a permanent ban from one report for killing nobody. We don't have a sliding scale for bans, there's no sensitivity to what kind of player it is, absolutely nothing, the only people who have any lenience are our donors.

The first thing players see when joining the server is the server rules. Our rules aren't that much different than the rules of other TTT servers, so there's no excuses for not following the rules. Staff don't hunt for bans, new players are encouraged to join and be a part of the community, but if they join just to break the rules, it's very apparent they don't have the intention to stay. Why give those players another chance? Regarding the thread you linked, he did 20+ damage to more than three people, which is mass RDM. He is more than welcome to appeal. Everyone is treated the same, donors or regulars don't have any lenience to breaking the rules.

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.

Not sure who told you this, but this isn't true, backwards, even. Only moderators have perms to ban, and there's only around 5-6 mods currently, excluding the 2 admins. For the unbans, trusteds and tmods are included in this committee, so more people have say in unbans than bans. Also looking at your ban request, the permanent ban given to you for mass/constant RDM was fitting.

For real though, make exploiting immediately KOSable. Bring back prop surfing KOS, because the only people that do it are trying to hide in the sky or exploit.

Being in the sky just leads to that player being extremely vulnerable. Pretty much a free kill from the T's. There's no real benefit to doing it. As for exploiting:



Yes but allow me to kill them if they're doing it

[Henry]

You're presenting a problem, but you're not offering any sort of a solution to the problem; I do agree that staffing amongst us is inconsistent as we all have different opinions on what's too much or "going too far," but it's because of the fact that we all approach situations differently that there is inconsistency on how staffing is done. I myself usually try not to overstep any boundaries when I'm handling issues on the server, but sometimes I make a mistake and overstep.  The problem with trying to address something like this is that staffing isn't always a black and white situation; in fact, it's usually a gray area problem. That's why sometimes I don't do anything because I feel like it'd be overstepping my boundaries and my sphere of influence as a Test Mod on TTT.

So what I want to ask you is this: What kind of solution do you think should be implemented to deal with this inconsistency with staffing? What do you think would help?

Simply complaining about it and expecting us to just magically fix it doesn't do anything; it just makes you look like an ass; I'd even go as far to say you're a "Karen" by doing that.

Just consider what I've said about coming up with a solution. If you can present one that is reasonable, I'll respect it. You can't fix problems on here or in the real world by simply complaining, you have to have initiative and think of ideas to solve a said issue. Just a life lesson I want you to take from what I'm saying.

I think you've failed to read what I had actually said. The point of my making this post isn't to just complain, and I feel like you've read this whole post as a complaint since that's what you were expecting given my rant in the discord. My solution, to rephrase what I said before. I agree completely its a gray area solution, which is why I want staff judgement on a case by case basis, instead of blanket punishments given what the rules say. My proposed solution is giving staff the discretion to make punishments with context included, meaning making new guidelines that treat obvious RDMers more harshly than players who want to be part of the community. Players that have been around a few days probably are looking to stay and shouldn't be instantly banned as if they're only here to troll. I also think that the staff need to be encouraged to apply the rules that are put forth more consistently when dealing with veterans and donors. I would like to see rules introduced that don't escalate things to a ban immediately, since trolls who are tempbanned are unlikely to return, I think its worth introducing temporary bans as punishments for users who RDM who are not new members. For brand new members who are obviously trolls it does warrant an immediate ban, but I think staff have the judgement to tell whether a new user who has been around for a few days really has the intent to troll or if they are just participating in the same way other users do here. I think its also worth pointing out this server does have an occasional culture of RDM and propkill, so when a user is involved in an rdm incident while the whole server is rdming / propkill battling, I think it doesn't make sense to have a report opened and a permaban served, especially since those ban requests are often entirely lacking context for when the RDM happened. Ban requests should require some sort of context and we should actually be talking to the supposed witnesses (and have more than one!), since these users can give this context and refute the claim that a kill is entirely random if its obvious that it isn't.