[Mr. EveryDay]

You're presenting a problem, but you're not offering any sort of a solution to the problem; I do agree that staffing amongst us is inconsistent as we all have different opinions on what's too much or "going too far," but it's because of the fact that we all approach situations differently that there is inconsistency on how staffing is done. I myself usually try not to overstep any boundaries when I'm handling issues on the server, but sometimes I make a mistake and overstep.  The problem with trying to address something like this is that staffing isn't always a black and white situation; in fact, it's usually a gray area problem. That's why sometimes I don't do anything because I feel like it'd be overstepping my boundaries and my sphere of influence as a Test Mod on TTT.

So what I want to ask you is this: What kind of solution do you think should be implemented to deal with this inconsistency with staffing? What do you think would help?

Simply complaining about it and expecting us to just magically fix it doesn't do anything; it just makes you look like an ass; I'd even go as far to say you're a "Karen" by doing that.

Just consider what I've said about coming up with a solution. If you can present one that is reasonable, I'll respect it. You can't fix problems on here or in the real world by simply complaining, you have to have initiative and think of ideas to solve a said issue. Just a life lesson I want you to take from what I'm saying.

I think you've failed to read what I had actually said. The point of my making this post isn't to just complain, and I feel like you've read this whole post as a complaint since that's what you were expecting given my rant in the discord. My solution, to rephrase what I said before. I agree completely its a gray area solution, which is why I want staff judgement on a case by case basis, instead of blanket punishments given what the rules say. My proposed solution is giving staff the discretion to make punishments with context included, meaning making new guidelines that treat obvious RDMers more harshly than players who want to be part of the community. Players that have been around a few days probably are looking to stay and shouldn't be instantly banned as if they're only here to troll. I also think that the staff need to be encouraged to apply the rules that are put forth more consistently when dealing with veterans and donors. I would like to see rules introduced that don't escalate things to a ban immediately, since trolls who are tempbanned are unlikely to return, I think its worth introducing temporary bans as punishments for users who RDM who are not new members. For brand new members who are obviously trolls it does warrant an immediate ban, but I think staff have the judgement to tell whether a new user who has been around for a few days really has the intent to troll or if they are just participating in the same way other users do here. I think its also worth pointing out this server does have an occasional culture of RDM and propkill, so when a user is involved in an rdm incident while the whole server is rdming / propkill battling, I think it doesn't make sense to have a report opened and a permaban served, especially since those ban requests are often entirely lacking context for when the RDM happened. Ban requests should require some sort of context and we should actually be talking to the supposed witnesses (and have more than one!), since these users can give this context and refute the claim that a kill is entirely random if its obvious that it isn't.

The offenders are entirely free to come into the ban request thread and provide context, which they do all the time, and a lot of times the context is provided in the post anyways. Also in my experience people that are chosen as witnesses usually don't care enough to provide more context or simply don't remember enough.

[Nicol Bolas]

A short note to stop quoting massive text walls or at least edit them down please

[Cyrus]

I get what you're saying, but the rule for attempted mass/consistent RDM (regardless of how long someone has been on the server) is a permanent ban. The reason why new players are banned at a higher rate is simply because if someone who is a guest is causing issues, the natural assumption is to assume they're only on to cause trouble and need to be dealt with. The regulars, as much as I hate to admit it, do get away with sitting in the gray area on situations. I will not deny that fact. I'm only going to be speaking for myself here, but I usually try my best not to show any sort of bias in these situations. Naturally, we as humans will make mistakes and not make the right choice, causing the conundrum of showing "bias." The reason why a lot of these players go unpunished is because the people who they're prop killing/revenge rdming (etc) usually do not report the person doing it. In my case, I usually will slay the person who did it if someone makes a report and they do not forgive, unless the death scene/logs show me evidence that the one who reported initiated the conflict. I also agree that sometimes, staffing is inconsistent amongst us. Just like any other occupation, we all have our own approach to how to handle issues: some of us are more authoritarian than others, while others are more laid back and only step in when it gets too chaotic. Neither one of these are a bad thing, but I just want to reiterate to you that not everyone approaches situations the same way, and that we sometimes will make errors in judgement, mistakes, etc. In this case, Jesse supplied a great deal of evidence that you were causing issues with consistent attempted RDM/Mass RDM. That does result in a ruling of a permanent ban from the server, as I stated in the introduction of this response. I respect your opinion you have, but I've explained why I disagree. I hope you can respect that.

---

So, you didn't actually read what I was saying. I have specified MULTIPLE times that I should be banned to an extent for what I've done. However, I also said that permabanning players who have made mistakes for their FIRST mistake is far overboard and yes, if a player has no intention to come back to the server, then they should be banned permanently. But the thing is, if a player has been banned for 1,3,7 days, etc (honestly you could just make the initial ban 7 days) then they won't come back anyway. You've also agreed that there are issues in moderation and inconsistency, which is exactly the point I want to bring up. Listen, you have the right idea but you're interpreting it all wrong and everything you've said essentially agrees with what I'm calling for, yet you somehow reach a different conclusion.

You agreed that there is a certain gray area for regulars and donors, (which definitely shouldn't exist if the first ban for rdm past 2 slays is perma), and you also agreed that staff inconsistently deal with players. So, should it really be fair for a player to be permabanned because one staff was more authoritarian than another? That doesn't sit well with me at all. Players shouldn't have to rely upon the benevolence of the moderator banning them to know whether or not they are permabanned. If a player made a small mistake that was inconsistently dealt with by different staff (for example, lets say one staff would ban someone for continuous propkill while a different staff wouldn't ban them) It would be much more fair to have them start out with an initial 3 or 7 day ban than permaban, because permabanning seems far too black and white. If someone does something stupid and gets temp banned by a mod that is more critical of rule breaking, then, oh well, they get banned for a few days and have a chance for redemption IF they want to come back (keep in mind that most players whose SOLE intention to grief would never return after a 3 or 7 day ban).

Honestly man, your heart is in the right place but you really are grossly underestimating how flawed the system is, and you also haven't considered any of my suggestions and have instead simply said my permaban was warranted and that there ARE issues on the server (yet somehow not that they need to be addressed or fixed)

---

The offenders are entirely free to come into the ban request thread and provide context, which they do all the time, and a lot of times the context is provided in the post anyways. Also in my experience people that are chosen as witnesses usually don't care enough to provide more context or simply don't remember enough.

So then, they shouldn't be permabanned off the first report / request that is filed since there aren't enough instances and witnesses to agree / corroborate it. Right? Hmmm. Players shouldn't be permabanned immediately in 99% of cases, because, if they had no intention to seriously play the game, they wouldn't come back after the first 3 or 7 day ban.

[Henry]

The first thing players see when joining the server is the server rules. Our rules aren't that much different than the rules of other TTT servers, so there's no excuses for not following the rules. Staff don't hunt for bans, new players are encouraged to join and be a part of the community, but if they join just to break the rules, it's very apparent they don't have the intention to stay. Why give those players another chance? Regarding the thread you linked, he did 20+ damage to more than three people, which is mass RDM. No reason to throw incends at innos when you're an inno. He is more than welcome to appeal. Everyone is treated the same, donors or regulars don't have any lenience to breaking the rules.

I do intend to distinguish new users who are not intending to stay, I'm saying we need to distinguish based on things like returning users versus first time users, people who have been around and participated for a few days versus people who have just joined, because yes trolls join and should be banned, but people also make mistakes and should not be permabanned with no incentive to rejoin / appeal if they're a returning member. Most guests have no reason to appeal, because if they feel they've been banned unfairly, they'll just never come back since they have no investment in the server yet. I know by our current rules, that does warrant a perma ban, but I think doing 20+ damage to 3 people in a single round, after having played many rounds over several days is a small bump in an otherwise fine member. And I know the staff are told to apply punishments evenly, but it just doesn't happen that way. We both need a culture of reporting things that happen to regulars and donors as well as getting staff to actually punish our donors, like in the example of donors queuing racist things with no warning, versus a new player who is punished very quickly for being racist.

[Cyrus]

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.

Not sure who told you this, but this isn't true, backwards, even. Only moderators have perms to ban, and there's only around 5-6 mods currently, excluding the 2 admins. For the unbans, trusteds and tmods are included in this committee, so more people have say in unbans than bans. Also looking at your ban request, the permanent ban given to you for mass/constant RDM was fitting.

Here's straight from the discord, what I was told, by a TTT mod! This is verbatim what I WAS TOLD. 

Ethan Today at 7:22 PM

Ban requests are handled by 10 people. Unban, by 2

So forgive me for using the information I was told!  Also shows another inconsistency between staff themselves (not trying to throw ethan or you under the bus, but it did just occur!) I didn't say I shouldn't have been banned. I've just pointed out potential issues in permabanning for initial offenses and suggested that there is a better solution, which you didn't respond to. Please read into what I said instead of dismiss me for being permabanned and "complaining".
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[squid]

Staff discretion is already in effect. There are many instances where staff discretion has prevented players from receiving an "escalated ban." Everything is done in a case by case basis. No two instances are the same. Players playing for only a few days doesn't mean they'll keep playing. Also, there is a reason why permanent bans are called indefinite bans. They can be appealed (not including players banned for cheating). Players consenting to fight each other is not RDM. Context is also very important, and is taken into account, which is the reason for death cams. 

Here's the staff guidelines
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qJLp...o6d3Q/edit

[Foxka]

mass RDM should be a 2 week ban

change my mind

[squid]

We both need a culture of reporting things that happen to regulars and donors as well as getting staff to actually punish our donors, like in the example of donors queuing racist things with no warning, versus a new player who is punished very quickly for being racist.

Donors queuing racist things is 100% against the rules. I personally have not seen it happen, but if it does happen, by all means feel free to shadowplay it and make it apparent to us. Whether that be a private discord dm or a ban request.

[Cyrus]

Staff discretion is already in effect. There are many instances where staff discretion has prevented players from receiving an "escalated ban." Everything is done in a case by case basis. No two instances are the same. Players playing for only a few days doesn't mean they'll keep playing. Also, there is a reason why permanent bans are called indefinite bans. They can be appealed (not including players banned for cheating). Players consenting to fight each other is not RDM. Context is also very important, and is taken into account, which is the reason for death cams. 

Here's the staff guidelines
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qJLp...o6d3Q/edit

So staff discretion really makes sense when a staff member bans me from the server permanently, after viewing someone else's account and viewing all their information, regardless of if it was true or not. I don't want to specifically relate to my case, but since youll probably bring it up anyway, Jesse provided some valid evidence to have me banned, however, some of it was not actually valid and has even been refuted by another group of players (to no fault of Jesse, he just didn't know the context) , so it seems far too extreme to immediately permaban off evidence that MAY or MAY NOT be true. 

Even if the fact that players playing only for a few days may or may not continue playing, should they really be permabanned (or indefinitely banned). I did the work to create a forum thread for an unban because I enjoy this server, but it's honestly far too much work for someone who has only played a few days to have to do. Banning them for a temporary period of time is a much better solution that provides them with a second chance while still warning them of the consequences.Sure, if they do it agian perma ban them and they have to send an appeal, but they shouldn't be banned off the bat.

---

mass RDM should be a 2 week ban

change my mind

This is what I'm trying to drive home. Especially in a server that has a huge rdm and propkill and minge culture from long-time players and even other staff.

[squid]

It's also strange that , from what I heard on the discord (I was told to post this here instead of this discord) there is a moderation team of 10 people for banning, and only 2 for unbanning. That doesn't really make sense when initial punishments are permabans for players, and it's not that I'm saying there should be more staff in the unban committee, but that there really shouldn't be permabans for initial players if there are too few players to handle unbans.

Not sure who told you this, but this isn't true, backwards, even. Only moderators have perms to ban, and there's only around 5-6 mods currently, excluding the 2 admins. For the unbans, trusteds and tmods are included in this committee, so more people have say in unbans than bans. Also looking at your ban request, the permanent ban given to you for mass/constant RDM was fitting.

Here's straight from the discord, what I was told, by a TTT mod! This is verbatim what I WAS TOLD. 

Ethan Today at 7:22 PM

Ban requests are handled by 10 people. Unban, by 2

So forgive me for using the information I was told!  Also shows another inconsistency between staff themselves (not trying to throw ethan or you under the bus, but it did just occur!) I didn't say I shouldn't have been banned. I've just pointed out potential issues in permabanning for initial offenses and suggested that there is a better solution, which you didn't respond to. Please read into what I said instead of dismiss me for being permabanned and "complaining".

On paper, yes, this is true. The 2 admins have authority to overrule the voting done by the committee. I personally have not seen this happen. The information given was not necessarily wrong, however slightly misleading. There are 16 people in total in the unban committee currently. There are roughly 6 active mods. 1 mod deals with each ban request, applying punishments listed in the staff guidelines, however given the circumstances, punishment time can be fluctuated depending on the situation, previous bans, etc or if they have trouble with it, they can ask fellow mods or an admin. In some cases, permaban is the first punishment, everything is dealt with in a case by case basis, every situation is different, and it should be up to staff to give the right response. It's not that staff aren't on the same page, information is just relayed differently sometimes.

I linked the staff guidelines above however I'll also link the global TTT ban page here if you'd like to compare bans to ban requests.
https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/tttbans/