[Gabe]

This is an informal report on jammin, therefore it is in Suggestions and Help. This is more about the stupidity of the warning itself rather than the person and being transparent about why it is.
Offender's DiscordID - Jammin#8313

What Server(s): Discord

Offender's Rank: Discord Mod

What They Did: False / nonsensical warning

When They Did It: Today, 2:39PM EST


In the interest of transparency, I am making this thread so the topic is up for debate in the public. To put it simply, this warning for a joke is quite simply bullshit and taking a hypothetical situation too seriously.

I mean, where do I start.

Dan, a user who is not banned on the forums, said this.

then this


I offer several reasons why Mr Jammin is taking this too seriously, avoiding the context of the situation, and how it is an apparent joke

1. I am not legally responsible for what others do in non existent situations, Dan is not banned nor is anyone that was present in chat. As this is not an active case and a hypothetical situation, as Dan is not banned nor was anyone who is presently banned on the forums in the chat, this warning should be removed
   
2. Jammin avoided the context of the situation
   
3. Taking a clear joking situation too seriously - i shouldnt have to write an essay like I normally do to explain why 
   
4. Everyone has talked about broad topics of alt evading and vpns before, which are two common conceptions. Why haven't they been warned too when joking about alt evading in non existent / joke situations where that context is known? Below are some examples. Everyone in these screenshots, like me, talk about vpn and ban evading. Why aren't they warned for talking about it? Are they also responsible for the choices someone makes after they say that in situations that are arguably more real than my hypothetical one?
   A current moderator also agrees that it is their choice and no one can force a.... nonexistent banned person into nonexistent alt evading because they aren't banned
   

         

A current Mod also says it's their "choice"

          

If nicky said this too, why hasn't nicky been warned for "offering methods of evasion"?

More screenshots of prior cases of jokes as well, just to prove the nonsensical nature of the warning
https://gyazo.com/5f438f84f897d2edc09a75f9288ba7ae 
https://gyazo.com/3b785a68211f3bbe6d6d288100eb3927
https://gyazo.com/42849ea7bd756d3bc32b75cbedc64040
https://gyazo.com/3235f3b542b95fdec16e5d4c0776ce20

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

You got a *warning* for talking about how to alt evade on the forums and the basis of your argument is that others get away with it? Isn’t the the whole basis on why ttt has people hanging around that act like shitheads?

[Gabe]

You got a *warning* for talking about how to alt evade on the forums and the basis of your argument is that others get away with it? Isn’t the the whole basis on why ttt has people hanging around that act like shitheads?

that is part of it but the other part is that Dan is not banned on the forums nor was anyone who was present in the chat. It was a non existent situations and the "offering methods of alt evasion" would apply to no one in that chat, given the context. I should not be held liable for a nonexistent situation nor the choices someone makes if they alt evade in a situation where they can't because they aren't banned. Read all of it and not just look at the screenshots to understand the other premises of the argument, as it is not only based on that assumption of yours.

 As you may realize, this is an inductive argument. Meaning its conclusions are based on probability. Inductive arguments derive a broad principle from the observation of particular events or instances, as in observations of previous cases, which is why it was included as PART of the argument. The conclusion could be falsifiable, which is why it is up for discussion. The specific instances being used are the liability clauses and the screenshots, as you have pointed out. This is why I would suggest reading full things in any given context, such as this nonexistent one. Again, it is merely an inductive argument. It is not a deductive one that aims for certain truth in its conclusion. This assumption that the argument is based on one premise of "others get[ting] away with it" is a logical fallacy. I believe it is called a weak analogy, where one makes an analogy between two or more objects, ideas, or situations, which would be the TTT shitheads situation. Again, I would recommend reading the other parts to avoid this common logic fallacy, which is not your fault, but the fault of contexts being sometimes hidden behind the thing that stands out the most

[Jammin]

TBH the only reason I issued the warning is that the items you posted are ways someone can forum evade.
Of course you meant it as a joke - but the issue is that someone could see the suggestion and decide to implement the advice.
You wound't be responsible at all for anyone actually evading - but someone seeing what you typed could lead to something worse. THat's why it is against discord TOS and why I struck you for it.
The issue is, what happens if someone who is forum banned or server banned sees your post in discord? and decides to implement it? I get you are not advcating for it, the only real issue here is that it can give bad ideas to bad parties.

That being said I have already given my thunbs up to having yoru strike appeal approved. At the moment mods aren't supposed to process strike appeals but I'm sure Nicol will do later.

Addressing your points in order:
1. Agreed that you are not responsible for anyone alt evading. That is not why I warned.
2. I didn't see the full context but my point stands. Someone else who is forum banned could see the post and decide to ban evade the forums. Or worse - a game server. Implementing the advice you joked about could cause some actual problems for server staff or forum admins.
3. The main issue is what if bad parties see this? This is why it is a discord TOS rule - bad parties could see this and decide to use the advice you posted. A clear joke between friends was done in the open, in general
4. They have. People often get yeeted by server staff from the discord for posting cheats/hacks or alt evasion advise before discord staff get to it. If I don't warn for it, that is because I didn't see it.

Among the examples you posted, Nicky should proably also have been warned Just saying "alt evading" isnt the issue, but explaining HOW to do so is the issue.

That being said I probably should have just DM'd you instead of striking you.
And the rules should probably be clarified to prohibit conversation around the topic in the future.

[lacer]

LOL we're seriously warning people for petty shit like this now?

Jammin, your argument that "You wound't be responsible at all for anyone actually evading - but someone seeing what you typed could lead to something worse." is total nonsense. If he's not responsible for anyone actually evading following his advice (that, by the way, is known by nearly anybody who knows how to operate a computer) then why is he being held responsible for people POTENTIALLY doing worse?

You're warning him for something that hasn't happened, not that the strike would've been warranted had something really happened. It's a bit similar to someone trying to beat my Mass RDM record of 11 people because I explained how I killed 11 people, then banning me alongside them. Make sense?

It doesn't make sense to me either.

[TheUltraFish]

If you think your discord warning was incorrect or wrong, you can appeal it in the discord strike appeals section of the general discord. Going in to what if scenarios or how people may or may not perceive as you say on the discord as something to take seriously or as a joke is a slippery slope.

Encouraging people to alt evade is bad, that is obvious. Expecting everyone to take what you say as a joke can be dangerous especially on the internet unless made absolutely clear.

Did Jammin jump the gun? Maybe, I understand where both sides are coming from.

[Gabe]

If you think your discord warning was incorrect or wrong, you can appeal it in the discord strike appeals section of the general discord. Going in to what if scenarios or how people may or may not perceive as you say on the discord as something to take seriously or as a joke is a slippery slope.

Encouraging people to alt evade is bad, that is obvious. Expecting everyone to take what you say as a joke can be dangerous especially on the internet unless made absolutely clear.

Did Jammin jump the gun? Maybe, I understand where both sides are coming from.

I already appealed it through that prior to this thread, the thread was made supplementary to address the reason of the warning itself to put it up for public debate because I do not think it should be resolved privately. So it is, sorry for this next word, transparent for further cases. I don't think anyone here is saying that encouraging people to alt evade isn't bad, it clearly is. It's just the context that this happen in where there was a nonexistent actor that could have heeded that advice to ban evade. I just think warning for something that is nonexistent, potential, and has not happened yet is nonsensical. If someone was actively typing in that chat that was banned on the forums and I said that, sure a warning would be warranted imo. No one in that chat was banned from the forums. There is an extremely low chance that anyone banned on the forums would even see or be in that discord. Usually those forum banned are either community banned as well or not in the discord. I just think I am being held responsible for something that could "potentially" happen but didn't and had an extremely low chance of happening where someone would "heed that advice."

[Avi]

I think you are misunderstanding Discord TOS in a situation like this. The Discord Community Guidelines are an extension of the TOS, which references using ban evasion/methods of circumventing bans as a break in TOS, however, this is only in reference to Discord related evasion (either circumventing user blocks on Discord or Discord server bans). Their TOS covers other issues regarding games, circumventing, etc. but not in reference to forum ban evading.

I hit post before I finished my post so an addition to this:
I never wrote the Discord staff guidelines to be this strict. It followed a method I know works well of informing before warning. I understand I've been gone so things may have been changed but considering the accused Moderator in this situation has said they ignore the guidelines, that should be looked into considering this situation.  At most, it's a joke, and I highly doubt it will cause an issue that is already well known in the Gmod community. I honestly think it's a sad excuse to keep a warning on someone. There have been many discussions on how ban evading works, and I'm sure you can find this same information here on the forums or anywhere online.

[Jammin]

I think you are misunderstanding Discord TOS in a situation like this. The Discord Community Guidelines are an extension of the TOS, which references using ban evasion/methods of circumventing bans as a break in TOS, however, this is only in reference to Discord related evasion (either circumventing user blocks on Discord or Discord server bans). Their TOS covers other issues regarding games, circumventing, etc. but not in reference to forum ban evading.

I guess I saw this as more of an extension of guideline 13 on sharing of methods to hack/cheat servers. Just as you don't want to share a method to acquire an aimbot, you also don't want to acquire a method to evade a forum ban/game ban/discord ban/etc/etc. But I guess evasion of non-discord bans aren't technically covered under that.

As I said, I didn't see the full context of the joke. I actually thought he was discussing, perhaps in a joking manner, how to evade a game ban.

I maintain that discussion of methods on how to evade any kind of ban - discord, forum, server - shouldn't be permitted in the official discord.

---

I also maintain that his strike should be removed.

[synthray]

Maybe just DMing an admin would have been enough. Admins and the Discord group talk about it; you get a slap on the wrist or no punishment instead. your strike gets removed and we call it a day. No drama.